We cant be taken to the ground

[Hanzou]

Just a basic horse stance seems to keep me from being on the ground most of the times. I say most of the times because there are times where it takes less energy to roll someone over than to try to remain standing. Staying off the ground for my school is more of a recommendation than a solid rule. I do kung fu and some of the forms have techniques that require the student to be on the ground in order to pull it off. The only solid rule, for us, about being on the ground is to not be on the ground for long.

Becareful, there's a lot of takedowns that begin when your opponent is in horse stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Becareful, there's a lot of takedowns that begin when your opponent is in horse stance.

Agree! If your "horse stance" is:

- "narrow", your opponent will sweep your leg from outside in to make your stance even "narrower".
- "wide", your opponent will spring your leg from inside out to make your stance even "wider".
- "low", your opponent will twist your leg from top down to make your stance even "lower".
- "high", your opponent will horse back kick your leg above your knee to make your stance even "higher".

The 90 degree vertical line toward your horse stance base line will be your weak balance spot. IMO, there exist no perfect stance on earth that can be used to against grappling.

It's the skill that you use for

- mobility footwork,
- prevent from clinch,
- handle with clinch,
- handle with take down,

that can be used to deal with a grappler but not the stance.

For example, in the following picture, the wide horse stance can be used to deal with foot sweep nicely because you have a large base. But if your opponent uses his leg to "spring/kick/hook/pull" your leg from inside out, since your base is too large and you can't make it any larger, you will fall.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Becareful, there's a lot of takedowns that begin when your opponent is in horse stance.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you have any video of this? I would like to see for my training purposes. The horse stance that I take is a low horse stance but not super low like wushu. Similar to this picture but normally a little higher depending on the height of my opponent. If you don't know of any video then throw out a couple of grappling techniques that one may try on someone in this stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

throw out a couple of grappling techniques that one may try on someone in this stance.

Let me try this.

A - person on the left,
B - person on the right,

A can use A's left hand to push on B right elbow joint to across to B's left to jam B's left arm (this is the set up). Depending on B's respond, A can use A's:

- left leg to "sweep" B's right leg (east force),
- right leg to "scoop" B's right leg (west force),
- right leg to "cut" B's right leg (north force),
- right hand to pull behind B's neck and "spin" B (south force). When B steps in B's left leg, A can sweep or hook B's left leg.
- right leg to "block" B's right leg (south force) after A has spun A's left leg.
- ...

Since B's stance will expose "leading leg" to A, A can take advantage and apply many skills.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Agree! If your "horse stance" is:

- "narrow", your opponent will sweep your leg from outside in to make your stance even "narrower".
- "wide", your opponent will spring your leg from inside out to make your stance even "wider".
- "low", your opponent will twist your leg from top down to make your stance even "lower".
- "high", your opponent will horse back kick your leg above your knee to make your stance even "higher".

The 90 degree vertical line toward your horse stance base line will be your weak balance spot. IMO, there exist no perfect stance on earth that can be used to against grappling.

It's the skill that you use for

- mobility footwork,
- prevent from clinch,
- handle with clinch,
- handle with take down,

that can be used to deal with a grappler but not the stance.

For example, in the following picture, the wide horse stance can be used to deal with foot sweep nicely because you have a large base. But if your opponent uses his leg to "spring/kick/hook/pull" your leg from inside out, since your base is too large and you can't make it any larger, you will fall.

This is a horrible fighting horse stance. The horse stance that he's doing is better for training and conditioning the legs. He couldn't possible move effectively in a stance like that. I'm not sure how other schools measure out the distance for a horse stance, but in my school this is how we get an idea of how far our legs are supposed to be.

The only way our horse stance would be that wide is if we did it wrong or had really large feet on a short person

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From the grappling art point of view, the horse stance in this clip is still too wide. IMO, the best width should be your "shoulder width + 2 fists distance". It has nothing to do with MA styles. It's pure science.

When your feet are close and touching together, your base is small and your balance is weak, When you move your feet apart, your base increases and your balance is getting better. After you have reached to the best width, if you move your feet further apart, you base will getting weaker. That best balance spot just happen to be the "shoulder width + 2 fists distance" as shown in the following normal distribution chart.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Let me try this.

A - person on the left,
B - person on the right,

A can use A's left hand to push on B right elbow joint to across to B's left to jam B's left arm (this is the set up). Depending on B's respond, A can use A's:

- left leg to "sweep" B's right leg (east force),
- right leg to "scoop" B's right leg (west force),
- right leg to "cut" B's right leg (north force),
- right hand to pull behind B's neck and "spin" B (south force). When B steps in B's left leg, A can sweep or hook B's left leg.
- right leg to "block" B's right leg after spinning with A's left leg (south force),
- ...

Since B's stance will expose "leading leg" to A, A opponent can take advantage and apply many skills.

I'll test these out.
The sweep and scoop only works if I'm not paying attention. It does work, I just have it covered. So it doesn't work on me unless I'm daydreaming. There are multiple ways to deal with it either by transitioning into another stance or by moving while in horse

"right hand to pull behind B's neck and "spin" B (south force). When B steps in B's left leg, A can sweep or hook B's left leg." I don't understand the pull behind B's neck and spin B. I'm not sure what that would look like. Any opportunity to sweep my left leg is almost zero when I'm in that stance. He's really far away from my left leg. I can move in horse without having my left leg come forward.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you have any video of this? I would like to see for my training purposes. The horse stance that I take is a low horse stance but not super low like wushu. Similar to this picture but normally a little higher depending on the height of my opponent. If you don't know of any video then throw out a couple of grappling techniques that one may try on someone in this stance.

Well from that position, just about anything except for double leg takedowns, body locks, and guard pulls depending on the skill of the person you're fighting. MMA style single legs and high clinches (muay thai clinch) are just gravy from there, especially if the guy you're fighting has a height and reach advantage.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From the grappling art point of view, the horse stance in this clip is still too wide. IMO, the best width should be your "shoulder width + 2 fists distance". It has nothing to do with MA styles. It's pure science.

When your feet are close and touching together, your base is small and your balance is weak, When you move your feet apart, your base increases and your balance is getting better. After you have reached to the best width, if you move your feet further apart, you base will getting weaker. That best balance spot just happen to be the "shoulder width + 2 fists distance" as shown in the following normal distribution chart.

I can't tell if his stance is too wide or not because I only see feet.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well from that position, just about anything except for double leg takedowns, body locks, and guard pulls depending on the skill of the person you're fighting. MMA style single legs and high clinches (muay thai clinch) are just gravy from there, especially if the guy you're fighting has a height and reach advantage.

From what I've experience so far, whenever a person reaches over me they be come wide open for a wide range of attacks. I'll have to find a muay thai fighter to test it out. We used to have one he was 6ft or taller and whenever I got that low he would kick me and not try to clinch.

Height and reach advantage decreases as punches are aimed downward. I can probably take off about 5 inches or more from a person that is 6ft tall just by getting into a lower stance.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The sweep and scoop only works if I'm not paying attention.

Of course you can bend your leg at you knee joint to escape both foot sweep and scoop. But you are no longer in horse stance any more.

"right hand to pull behind B's neck and "spin" B (south force). When B steps in B's left leg, A can sweep or hook B's left leg." I don't understand the pull behind B's neck and spin B. I'm not sure what that would look like. Any opportunity to sweep my left leg is almost zero when I'm in that stance. He's really far away from my left leg.

Since your opponent's back leg is far away from you, you have to either

- attack his leading leg, or
- force him to step in his back leg so you can attack it.

When your use your left hand to push on your opponent's elbow joint to your right, your can use your right hand to pull behind his neck. You step in your left leg, spin your right leg (clockwise - top view). Since your opponent may think that you try to move behind his right side door, he will spin with you and step in his left foot. When he steps in his left leg, that's the time you either sweep his left leg to throw him forward, or hook his left leg to throw him backward.

Here are 2 clips that shows how to pull your opponent's neck, spin him, and force him to step in his left leg.

 

[Hanzou]

From what I've experience so far, whenever a person reaches over me they be come wide open for a wide range of attacks. I'll have to find a muay thai fighter to test it out. We used to have one he was 6ft or taller and whenever I got that low he would kick me and not try to clinch.

Height and reach advantage decreases as punches are aimed downward. I can probably take off about 5 inches or more from a person that is 6ft tall just by getting into a lower stance.

Well keep in mind, I'm just talking about takedowns, not the entire process. Obviously in the whole dynamic, you're more than likely going to be dealing with someone using striking to set up a take down.

Here's one with Dan Henderson showing a single leg utilizing a striking set up;

Here's another showing a MT clinch set up off of a jab;

My point is that the stance itself, like all stances, is vulnerable. I think all TMAs could benefit highly by observing how the MMA styles are actively blending striking and grappling together.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here's another showing a MT clinch set up off of a jab;

This clip further proves that

- One should never withdraw his punching arm without pulling something back.
- A punch can be more than just a punch, it can be a punch followed by a pull.

 

[drop bear]

I'm not disagreeing with you, but do you have any video of this? I would like to see for my training purposes. The horse stance that I take is a low horse stance but not super low like wushu. Similar to this picture but normally a little higher depending on the height of my opponent. If you don't know of any video then throw out a couple of grappling techniques that one may try on someone in this stance.

Ankle pick.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Of course you can bend your leg at you knee joint to escape both foot sweep and scoop. But you are no longer in horse stance any more.


Since your opponent's back leg is far away from you, you have to either

- attack his leading leg, or
- force him to step in his back leg so you can attack it.

When your use your left hand to push on your opponent's elbow joint to your right, your can use your right hand to pull behind his neck. You step in your left leg, spin your right leg (clockwise - top view). Since your opponent may think that you try to move behind his right side door, he will spin with you and step in his left foot. When he steps in his left leg, that's the time you either sweep his left leg to throw him forward, or hook his left leg to throw him backward.

Here are 2 clips that shows how to pull your opponent's neck, spin him, and force him to step in his left leg.

Thanks

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well keep in mind, I'm just talking about takedowns, not the entire process. Obviously in the whole dynamic, you're more than likely going to be dealing with someone using striking to set up a take down.

Here's one with Dan Henderson showing a single leg utilizing a striking set up;

Here's another showing a MT clinch set up off of a jab;

My point is that the stance itself, like all stances, is vulnerable. I think all TMAs could benefit highly by observing how the MMA styles are actively blending striking and grappling together.

The Dan Henderson one doesn't work well against a low horse stance like that. We actually drill that one when training. A few guys tried it on me during free sparring and it didn't work for them. My horse stance actually prevented them from getting that position. There is no waist to grab and grabbing for my feet or leg puts the person at a bad angle for lifting me, as well as leaving his face exposed. You can actually try this without actually having to spar. Just have someone get in a low fighting horse stance and just by looking you can tell that you'll run into a bunch of fists and elbows before you can get to the waist.

The MT one that looks like a high stance technique. I'm not sure if he could do the same technique with someone in a low horse stance without making himself vulnerable.

Send some more suggestions.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Ankle pick.

This one is 50-50 for me. I've seen some that I knew wouldn't work and others I've seen and I was like "yeah I better keep my eye open from that one." The low horse stance actually allows me to throw punches as low as my angle. But there was one ankle pick that I saw on youtube where guy was far out and he nailed it perfectly. The move would have failed if the person would have moved their foot just a few inches back, but he didn't and ended up on the ground.

When the BJJ guy comes. I'll see if he can do that to me

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The Dan Henderson one doesn't work well against a low horse stance like that.

IMO, the following "single leg" method is easier.

- You don't have to get down that low.
- You can use your lower arm to jam his upper arm to disable his leading arm function.

There are more than

- 12 different ways to get "single leg", and
- 8 different ways to take your opponent down after that.

Someone told me there is a book that has 42 different ways to get "single leg". I haven't found that book yet.

In the following clip, his opponent's right hand may be able to hit on his head. If he can attack from the angle while his left foot line up with his opponent's feet, his opponent's free right hand won't be able to reach him. This is the general problem in sport. When striking is not allowed in sport, people don't try to avoid head shot hard enough.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO, the following "single leg" method is easier.

- You don't have to get down that low.
- You can use your lower arm to jam his upper arm to disable his leading arm function.

There are more than

- 12 different ways to get "single leg", and
- 8 different ways to take your opponent down after that.

Someone told me there is a book that has 42 different ways to get "single leg". I haven't found that book yet.

In the following clip, his opponent's right hand may be able to hit on his head. If he can attack from the angle while his left foot line up with his opponent's feet, his opponent's free right hand won't be able to reach him. This is the general problem in sport. When striking is not allowed in sport, people don't try to avoid head shot hard enough.

give me the ones that can be done while being punched at. I tried to look for some and most of them deals will wrestling and grappling sports where punches and kicks can't be done. I punch and kick out of a horse stance.

 

[drop bear]

This one is 50-50 for me. I've seen some that I knew wouldn't work and others I've seen and I was like "yeah I better keep my eye open from that one." The low horse stance actually allows me to throw punches as low as my angle. But there was one ankle pick that I saw on youtube where guy was far out and he nailed it perfectly. The move would have failed if the person would have moved their foot just a few inches back, but he didn't and ended up on the ground.

When the BJJ guy comes. I'll see if he can do that to me

Sissor take down.

Thai sweep.

Hip bump or vingativa.