USAT announces historic Kukkiwon special dan testing

[MasterWright]

But what do you have to do to get it and how do you know its really graded are you there? NO! You basically paid $70 for a piece of paper! It doesnt meen your better in any way!!!!

There is a standard set of requirements that are followed. When an application is submitted to the kukkiwon, the student and examiner or board need to be approved.

May I ask how much you charge for your AMP Ryu Degree? and where else is it recognised. If I get a printing shop to make a drivers license for me would it be just as good when I get pulled over by the cops ?

At least my students don't have to start all over again if they moved away, even to another country.

We give a degree from our school as well, if the student does not care to pay a few dollars more for a KKW certificate. They hold the same rank in our club and these people just want fitness and training for different reasons. I respect that and certainly don't tell them things like all they have is a $ 70.00 piece of paper.

 

[terryl965]

This is true give it to those that would like to have it and for those that do not fine.

 

[Miles]

Hate to tell you, I have a certificate for the "foreign instructors course". Know how I got it? Did nothing, attended nothing, was over for the World Championships a few years back and the group I was traveling with was supposed to take the course. Because of the politics at the time the course never came about.... but everyone got a certificate.
Of couse this is the same group were everyone got a black belt in Kumdo. After two lessons.
I am still betting on a 100% pass rate. $$$ Talks, especially in Korea.

What year was that? I looked over the WTF's website and see no world championships held at the last week of July and nothing recently in Korea.
http://www.wtf.org/site/events/chronology.htm

 

[terryl965]

What year was that? I looked over the WTF's website and see no world championships held at the last week of July and nothing recently in Korea.
http://www.wtf.org/site/events/chronology.htm

I believe he is referring to 2002 when they was having some inner problems. But I do not recalling everyone recieving anything.

 

[Miles]

Yes but your personal perspective is just that your personal perspective!

I agree, but by the same token, doesn't this also mean your perspective is no more valid that mine? Nevertheless, my perspective is that of a student who has taken the opportunity to go and see for myself what happens at the KKW and that helped form my perspective.

It still has not been proven to me that the kukkiwan certs vs. the certs I give out make the Kukkiwan students better than my students!

These are actually two separate and new issues to the discussion: does the certificate make a better practitioner? What evidence does it take to "prove" something to someone?

From my perspective, no the certificate does not make the practitioner. I could be just as good (or bad) regardless of whether I held certification from the KKW, the ITF, of Bob's School of Taekwondo.

As to the second issue, that of proof, I am not sure what will convince you, that is only something you can answer for yourself.

Why should the only "real" black belt certs come from korea? Why dont we make an "official" organization here in the USA that does the certs in exchage for someones money from another country.

See above. I never said only real black belts certs come from Korea. In fact, my first 17 years in TKD were doing "breakaway" ITF style. I do however support the KKW because it is promoting TKD in a beneficial way from my perspective.

You can create an "official" organization here in the US. There is no shortage of organizations all issuing their own certification. What is the value of that certification? Likely, not much better than any other groups since neither organization will recognize anyone not within their organization. But the KKW certificate is issued and recognized worldwide. It is as close to a standard as possible, from my perspective.

What will your organization do? Will it teach instructors how to be better instructors? If so, standardization of technique and methodology is important, don't you think? The KKW wants to do this and has devoted over 30 years of effort to this end.

I know its to keep everything standardized, but I dont want my style I teach standard! I want Japanese and Chinese influences along with some brazilian and so on and so forth, based of the TKD platform. TKD makes other styles easier to learn and I use it as a basis.

There is nothing wrong with adding other influences or elements to one's personal practice. Each of us has different interests within and outside the martial arts. I enjoy studying Filipino martial arts. I think in some ways, they have made my TKD better as they enhance my experience. For example, when I was in high school, I took 2 years of French. Those 2 years of French helped me understand English better. What you are doing Amp-Ryu is not unlike Guro Dan Inosanto or MT's own Brian Van. Good luck with your training!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Actually...
Competition... the only competition you need a KKW for is if you are on the team (international meets). If you are good enough to make the team they will get you a certificate PDQ... like next day (and that requirement may be going by the wayside soon).

And such competition is the only area where a KKW rank is a requirement. Yes, they'll get you the cert, but if it weren't a requirement, they wouldn't bother. So if you're on the team, then practically, you need the cert. Whether you show up with it in hand or the team furnishes it for you, the end result is still the same.

Portable Rank.... since the KKW has no relevant standards their certification has become to mean nothing. If a student walks into my gym regardless of his/her certification they must prove to me that they are that rank. I think thats becoming more true all the time for most organizations.

Yes, and if a student comes to your school with a KKW blackbelt but performs at a blue belt level, it is perfectly reasonable to say, 'you can't wear that belt until you've gotten yourself up to speed; bring in your old blue belt.'

But would you demand of a student who holds dan rank in the same org as your school to pay testing fees from white belt through black belt again. Is that something that you'd do to an incoming student? I'd hope not.

Now, if you're not a KKW instructor, then his or her rank would hold no real meaning at your school.

Regarding the KKW standards, they actually have relevant standards, but it is up to the individual schools to determine if the students meet those standards. Admitedly, they are minimal standards; just enough to maintain a thread of continuity between all KKW schools. Both a sport oriented TKD school and a traditional school that has no sport participation at all are very different schools and each can meet the minimum requirements for a KKW dan cert equally well.

If this certification provides them with so much protection when was the last time the KKW stepped in to correct some instructor who took the money and ran? Have you EVER known them to pull someones certification? How about even send out a warning letter to someone? Anything? For an organization to have meaning they have to have some form of control over standards. Do they?

The only protection that it provides is exactly what I stated: you have a rank that is recognized by a body over and above the issuing school's say so. Go to a non KKW school and any and all benefits from the KKW are gone.

So much protection? I never said that it was so much proteciton. Don't get the idea that I think that the KKW provides anything resembling labor union style protections for its members; it doesn't.

And no, the KKW doesn't exercise nearly enough of the regulatory authority that it could over its member schools. The very scenario of a school owner taking the money and running (I know people whom this has happened to) is the only reason that I am not against this special testing. There should be no need for any sort of special testing. But if they can redress wrongs of the past, then it can be a good thing. It would be a much better thing if the redressing of wrongs were accompanied by a mechanism to prevent such wrongs in the future, a mechanism that, as you point out, either doesn't exist or isn't exercised.

The KKW is essentially a body of administrators of curriculum and an issuance body for certificates. Nothing more. Essentially, it is just enough to be not-a-papermill. This is sad, because it could be so, so much more. And it wouldn't be all that hard for the KKW to be so.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

But what do you have to do to get it and how do you know its really graded are you there?

Well, given that you test before a 4th+ dan instructor/master who grades your test and tells you if you passed or failed, sending in the appropriate paperwork in the case of the former, I'd say that answers whether or not you know that it was graded and whether or not you were there.

NO! You basically paid $70 for a piece of paper!

No, you basically paid a registration fee to a certification body for a credential that I as a student or owner of a school can go online and check. If you say that you're a KKW fifth dan, I as a student can go and verify your claim. If you show up at my school and claim that you're a KKW first dan, likewise, I can go online and check, though asking an incoming student to demonstrate their skills will demonstrate that to me fairly quickly. Certainly, that is no guarantee that you're any good; it just means that you aren't lying about your credential. Which is a practical benefit to a school owner in dealing with customers who care about that sort of thing. In my area, everyone cares about your credential, be it martial arts or new car sales, or driving a zamboni (yes, Maryland has a specific zamboni license).

If you run a small school with students that don't care about fancy paperwork, then you can certainly dispense with organizational credentials. As you state below.....

It doesnt meen your better in any way!!!!

And does your driver's license make you a better driver in any way? The MVA didn't teach you to drive. Someone else did. I don't know how it is in your state, but you have to renew your license in Maryland every few years. There is no test at renewal. You pay your fee and you're done. The test to get your license involves navigating a 16th mile parking lot course where the hardest part is parallel parking and you never go above five miles an hour. Does that license and test make me a better driver than I was when I arrived to take it? No. If anything, it allows someone with virtually no skill outside of being able to park a car to be licensed to drive all over the country at speeds eleven times to thirteen times greater than those that they were tested on.

Doesn't matter: get pulled over without a license and nobody will care that you're a former F-1 champ in Europe; you're car gets towed, you get fined, and you walk home.

My point is that just because the cert doesn't make you better doesn't mean that it has no purpose, and we all pay larger sums of money into pieces of paper and plastic that don't really make us better or really do anything more for us than a KKW cert does. At least you aren't required to go to a KKW school or receive a KKW cert just to practice taekwondo.

My apologies for further thread drift.

Daniel

 

[matt.m]

Oh man, I swear "Giving Rank" is crazy. I tell you it is running wild through a lot of arts, not just Tae Kwon Do. I know a guy who put together a resume. He sent it to whoever and viola he was a 1st dan in hapkido. Tae Kwon Do gets a bad rap because with "More Commercialism" then the more apt a dirty school is to be around. Organizations are the ones that let individual schools do it ect. It is crazy. I always parrallel a dan with a college degree. If you graduate and earn a dan then if you do both with consistency you should have earned both at roughly the same time.

It seems the greedy want to play on the emotions and greed of the ones who just "Don't want to be patient and work hard."

Just my .02, I mean with a messed up back and wearing 2 titanium leg braces I still test for my belts. I am a Judo 2nd Dan becuse I have to go up so my students can be promoted. For the next 2 or so years I will be eligible for 3rd dan. Ok, that's cool. However, will it benefit me or my students and the organization? I say "Students and Organization." We are without an active 3rd dan and well the students need to have a 'higher ranking' instructor."

I just do not understand how you can became a third dan without even testing for them. This is just marketing to the masses and making money so easy. I have hav about thirty people tell me they can just send in paperwork and get to third without even testing. How do I explain this to my people.

 

[Miles]

Oh man, I swear "Giving Rank" is crazy. I tell you it is running wild through a lot of arts, not just Tae Kwon Do.

Matt, you are correct. I see more of these threads about rank (and who's a fraud or who is not) on BBS than pretty much any other topic, regardless or art.

Bottom line-keep on training and improve yourself-you are the only one you have to account to.

 

[matt.m]

Here's the main problem a lot of folks have in arts with pre-arranged fighting such as forms, patterns, sparring etc. (Japanese Karates, Okinawan Karates, Tae Kwon Do, etc.)

Keep this in mind....every block is a strike and every strike is a breaking technique. So with the following statement being true I will say this..."All techniques are breaking techniques."

By doing these patterns you are getting more reps with practicing down blocks and that kind of thing. So if you are in a karate or tae kwon do based art and don't like forms then do something else.

Having only done a few of the Tae Gueks I guess my problem with them is that they just dont fit a good theory.... step and block with the back hand that type of stuff.... not that the Pal Gues are all correct but at least make more sense to me.

 

[matt.m]

Interestingly enough at one time I was and still am sort of. Here is the deal....

While in the Marine Corps I was on the All Marine Judo Team. I was only tested as a brown 1st, however I always competed on the dan level. I had victory, medals, trophies, all the good stuff. However, when I felt I was ready close to the end of my enlistment my original instructor was not around to test me. That was 1996, I had been point eligible for dan test in 95 and had enough points to be a 2nd dan according to the USJA guidelines. Anyway, I received my 1st dan from the same person that was my primary instructor ten years later. A yr. later I received my 2nd dan. That is right where I should have been when I left the Marines. I am doing a huge paper for my 3rd Dan. I won't be eligible for that ranking for another 2 yrs. or so but that is ok.

I am very pleased to have this opportunity to attain a rank that is representative of my years of training and, hopefully, my Taekwondo history. I have submitted my application and am anxiously awaiting a reply.

I have read some profiles about members who received their black belts in 85, before I started training. I received my school black belt in 89 and my kukkiwon in 90. I have since owned a martial arts school for 9 years, trained provincial, national and international players and contributed to my community. I have my level 2 NCCP, which I believe has now changed, and my National Instructor certification. I also returned to school, after teaching Taekwondo in Korea for 6 months, to pursue my undergrad in education and am currently taking my bachelors or education. Unforutnatly I have experienced issues with testing, like a lot of you. I currently hold my 3rd Kukkiwon and have tried, on two separate occations, to get my 4th - and did not receive a certificate. So, I decided to go for it, and apply to test for my 6th dan. Part of my reasoning, if I had tested consistenty since 1990, since I have trained and taught consistently, I would be 4 years into my 6th. I know the rank does not change who I am or what kind of instructor I may be...but it is nice to have a rank that somewhat represents where you have been. I just want a chance to test - then passing is all up to me. In fact, I am so excited about the seminar and the potential testing...but only time will tell if it will become a reality.

I also left my instructor in 2000 - due to a difference in business philosophies. He was all business and I am not...and I had to eat, if you catch my drift.

Thanks for reading. Anyone else in the same boat as I, awaiting a reply?

 

[matt.m]

No one throw a shoe at me but consider this: Yep for nationals and above you need to be kkw certified. However, if you are a competitor that doesn't go to those kind of tournaments no problem. When I test and pass my tkd dan, hopefully then I will get KKW certified for the standardization of the 1st dan rank.

Also, consider: TKD has it relatively easy in the regard of the KKW cert. in Judo just to compete in the local Y.M.C.A. you have to be a member of the USJA or USJI, US Judo Association or US Judo Institute. They follow the Kodokan guidelines etc. So everyone from whitebelt to dan has to be a member to compete. This is not the case in TKD. As a gup rank you go to the tournament, sign the waiver, then go to compete.

Plus, just because you want to test for 4th dan you have to be recommended by a grandmaster or higher for service to judo. If I ever get to test for this I will have the Kodokan cert.

 

[terryl965]

Matt as always you put a good take on every post Thanks for your input sir.

 

[IcemanSK]

It just dawned on me that this test in Vegas is in February! The deadline is January 7th! Not a lot of time to get things squared away. One would have to really work hard to get it together.