Upper cut to the underam question

[Lynne]

An instructor explained to us that the upper cut in Pyung Ahn E Dan can be used on the ribs or under the arm. He asked us what we thought an upper cut to the underarm would do. I guessed make the arm go numb. That wasn't quite right. He said that it would knock a person out. I can believe it as that area is so sensitive, lots of nerve endings.

Later, a classmate mentioned that he was fairly sure an upper cut to the underarm could also kill someone. Is that true?

I tell you, I never knew it was so "easy" to kill someone as I am learning in TSD. It's good when the instructors say, "Don't ever do this unless you are truly in danger." (I'm talking about other moves - spearhand to the throat, elbow strikes to the back of the head.)

 

[DavidCC]

the heart meridian runs thru that area. it can be extremely painful and cause signifcant reaction. and, of course, making that arm pretty useless for a while.

Can it kill??? I'd have to ask someone who said that to explain that in more detail. A LOT more detail. We have a number of MDs in our shcool so anyone putting a theory like that out there better have their ducks in a row

 

[Lynne]

the heart meridian runs thru that area. it can be extremely painful and cause signifcant reaction. and, of course, making that arm pretty useless for a while.

Can it kill??? I'd have to ask someone who said that to explain that in more detail. A LOT more detail. We have a number of MDs in our shcool so anyone putting a theory like that out there better have their ducks in a row

It wasn't an instructor who said that kind of strike could kill; it was a fellow classmate. It would be interesting to know though, wouldn't it? I hope I never have to use my skills for self-defense and have no idea how I'd react. I suppose whatever I could grab or punch first. Upper cutting the underarm doesn't seem intuitive but who knows? Kicking didn't feel natural at first either.

 

[Xue Sheng]

the heart meridian runs thru that area. it can be extremely painful and cause signifcant reaction. and, of course, making that arm pretty useless for a while.

Can it kill??? I'd have to ask someone who said that to explain that in more detail. A LOT more detail. We have a number of MDs in our shcool so anyone putting a theory like that out there better have their ducks in a row

Agreed

And I think I will ask my wife, she is an OMD from China, and she what she has to say about this

 

[Empty Hands]

Later, a classmate mentioned that he was fairly sure an upper cut to the underarm could also kill someone. Is that true?

No. There are many sensitive nerve endings there, as well as the main lymph node nexus in the body. That won't kill you though. There isn't even a slightly plausible mechanism to explain it.

Also, be careful how you shape your weapon for this strike. Using a full fist, it is easy to hit the "rim" and not penetrate to the interior where all the sensitive stuff is. In kenpo, we use a middle knuckle strike to this area to be sure of it. That reminds me, I've been struck pretty hard in this area while practicing some of our techniques. It isn't fun, but it never gave a reaction that would lead one to believe that death was a possibility. Not like being struck in the neck, that messed my head up for a while.

I tell you, I never knew it was so "easy" to kill someone as I am learning in TSD.

It is a good thing you put easy in quotes, because it isn't that easy at all in a real situation. The human body can endure an enormous amount of punishment, especially when the adrenaline is flowing. Don't get overconfident.

 

[Lynne]

Agreed

And I think I will ask my wife, she is an OMD from China, and she what she has to say about this

Please let us know what she has to say. And about passing out, too, please.

 

[Lynne]

No. There are many sensitive nerve endings there, as well as the main lymph node nexus in the body. That won't kill you though. There isn't even a slightly plausible mechanism to explain it.

Also, be careful how you shape your weapon for this strike. Using a full fist, it is easy to hit the "rim" and not penetrate to the interior where all the sensitive stuff is. In kenpo, we use a middle knuckle strike to this area to be sure of it. That reminds me, I've been struck pretty hard in this area while practicing some of our techniques. It isn't fun, but it never gave a reaction that would lead one to believe that death was a possibility. Not like being struck in the neck, that messed my head up for a while.



It is a good thing you put easy in quotes, because it isn't that easy at all in a real situation. The human body can endure an enormous amount of punishment, especially when the adrenaline is flowing. Don't get overconfident.

No overconfidence here. In fact, I imagine the attacker would be very motivated. Even if I could be accurate with a spearhand to the throat it might not be powerful enough to do much. I'm not sure that would even come to mind, even if I were in range.

I do go over some scenarios in my mind though. I walk an alley behind the school to get to my car. Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me. My testosterone-laden husband wishes I'd run him over, lol. Another time, I saw someone approaching via my peripheral vision. He stopped at 20 feet or so away. "Hey Lady, you got 84 cents?" 84 cents? I think he was wanting me to open a purse which I did not have as it was in the trunk. I never take my purse into the dojang locker room. I told him I didn't carry cash.

The area of town is nice during the day. At night, it is becoming increasingly unsafe. I informed one of the senior instructors and she talked with one of my classmates who is a policeman. They've been patrolling the alley. However, one of my oher female classmates has been approached twice also (since the patrolling started). So, we are a little paranoid that we may have to use our skills. Wouldn't it be ironic if it were right outside of the dojang?

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Where are your legs/hips situated at the moment the strike is launched?

I don't see myself throwing an uppercut to the armpit when the solar plexus and jaw are right there.....HOWEVER.......If my left arm has hold of his right arm/wrist( like maybe i just blocked/caught a punch) and my right arm is to throw the "uppercut", if you check your hips into them and instead let the "uppercut"become a scoop where his right arm is held onto by your left hand near the wrist, and his upper arm in the crook of your "uppercut", you're three-quarters the way into an ippon seoinage as in Judo/Jujutsu ( one arm shoulder throw).

 

[stickarts]

An instructor explained to us that the upper cut in Pyung Ahn E Dan can be used on the ribs or under the arm. He asked us what we thought an upper cut to the underarm would do. I guessed make the arm go numb. That wasn't quite right. He said that it would knock a person out. I can believe it as that area is so sensitive, lots of nerve endings.

Later, a classmate mentioned that he was fairly sure an upper cut to the underarm could also kill someone. Is that true?

I tell you, I never knew it was so "easy" to kill someone as I am learning in TSD. It's good when the instructors say, "Don't ever do this unless you are truly in danger." (I'm talking about other moves - spearhand to the throat, elbow strikes to the back of the head.)

Although there is a heart point there I haven't known that to be a place that you can strike to kill. You would have to hit other points at the same time for that to happen.

 

[arnisador]

The theory is that you can hit someone there hard enough to cause a tear in the axillary artery (where it becomes the brachial artery). That's why a spearhand is suggested.

Eh, I am unaware of any known successes with this approach.

 

[MBuzzy]

I am constantly amazed how many times I hear people - even in my own dojang - say how "this technique can kill someone" or something to that effect. The bottom line with killing someone is that EVERYONE is different. One technique that works on one person will not on another. With the right combination of attacker and defender, a single punch to the face can kill someone, but there really are very few "one hit one kill" techniques in the real world - especially ones that are guaranteed. Passing out is the same way....some people can take a lot of punishment and maintain consciousness. The only sure fire way to put someone out is to cut off blood and air to the brain for an appropriate amoutn of time.

As for a punch to the shoulder killing, or even causing someone to pass out - I seriously doubt it.

Also, on another note, I urge you to think critically about the actual application of that movement. Think about the entire sequence instead of individual movements. There are MANY MANY applications for that movement, most of them much more effective then a complex and difficult strike such as an underarm strike. Remember that when you're trying to punch them in their armpit, they are trying to stop you....there are better targets.

My favorite application is from a wrist grab (in the choon bee), this moves into a lock, a break, and a hit.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Please let us know what she has to say. And about passing out, too, please.

Painful yes, death causing no.

But to actually hit the heart maridian there and cause it any major problems she doubts a fist could do it, it would need to be a hard strike with the finger tips, but it does not take a whole lot of force to make you at least notice or at least it made me jump with not to much pressure but then she knows exactly where the correct point to strike is so I am not surprised

 

[jks9199]

I am constantly amazed how many times I hear people - even in my own dojang - say how "this technique can kill someone" or something to that effect. The bottom line with killing someone is that EVERYONE is different. One technique that works on one person will not on another. With the right combination of attacker and defender, a single punch to the face can kill someone, but there really are very few "one hit one kill" techniques in the real world - especially ones that are guaranteed. Passing out is the same way....some people can take a lot of punishment and maintain consciousness. The only sure fire way to put someone out is to cut off blood and air to the brain for an appropriate amoutn of time.

As for a punch to the shoulder killing, or even causing someone to pass out - I seriously doubt it.

Also, on another note, I urge you to think critically about the actual application of that movement. Think about the entire sequence instead of individual movements. There are MANY MANY applications for that movement, most of them much more effective then a complex and difficult strike such as an underarm strike. Remember that when you're trying to punch them in their armpit, they are trying to stop you....there are better targets.

My favorite application is from a wrist grab (in the choon bee), this moves into a lock, a break, and a hit.

If people were as easy to kill as some folks imply with their vast arsenals of "lethal techniques" -- we wouldn't have many folks training. At least not for long.

Yes, the human body is remarkably fragile. Yes, there are many ways to kill someone, and some of them are quite surprising.

No, we aren't tissue paper and eggshells.

 

[MA-Caver]

An accurate uppercut to the underarm would be debilitating to be sure and that's the key word... accurate as mentioned earlier here.
However the underarm is one of my favorite knife targets. Couple of quick jabs deep into it and with luck cut an artery and there's no-way to stop the bleeding by any pressure.

Of course... this is a last resort strike and one I'd take if it comes available.

But there are better and easier pressure points to strike with the hand and with the correct weapon shape of the hand. The only time where an underarm strike would be "open" is that if you just happen to catch that (slow) jab, swinging fist/wrist and step right under it. Yet a blow to the side rib cage or just below it is just as devastating and a good hard blow to the kidney can help slow an attacker.

Saying this punch and that punch at this or that location on the body can kill someone is borderline myth. You'd have to know where to strike, have the strength to hit hard enough and the accuracy to do it and even then it may only just debilitate the person (long enough for you to get away from them). You may catch that one person who has a underlying medical condition that actually helped your strike become a killing blow (i.e. a heart condition with a severe blow to the chest might do it). Or hitting the throat hard enough to crush the larynx and trachea to where the guy asphyxiates before help can arrive.

 

[Andrew Green]

I would say no, anything is possible of course and freaky things happen, but as a planned out strike with that as a planned objective? Well, I think it goes up there with that plan I had to win the lottery...

Unfortunately the martial arts world is full of more myths then snopes.com would no what to do with. If all of the ways you can kill a person I've heard where true we'd all be dead by now. Humans are really quite durable, we can take one hell of a beating and keep functioning.

 

[kaizasosei]

not gonna happen. at least not that easy. disrupting the meridian flow would take great skill that has little to do with the actual strike. of course it is possible to kill with a shout or a loud bang if the circumstances are fitting, but on average, an attacker can take a lot of punishment, so unlikely to kill by punching to armpit or underarm.
i can only see that the circulation of major artery or the heart become directly attacked by the blow...granted a powerful blow directly to the heart or pressure(like someone kneeling on the heart area) even could cause cardiac arrest in plenty of people.

chances are, it would just make the arm go numb. with added force, the bones could be broken. but to kill or stun using meridians and timing, is not an issue of force- so i say freak out and try it(of course, without the intention of killing- respectable intention being most important in ma).



j

 

[Lynne]

Thank you all for the replies. I ask questions when I'm unsure about something or if my BS detector goes off.

Regarding the fact that is not easy to strike a pressure point with accuracy or enough force got me thinking. I've been taking TSD classes for about 15 months now. We do a lot of hand-foot combinations (one-step sparring/Il Soo Sik Deh Ryun). From my first week, I've been doing chop blocks to the outer wrists of my classmates. Not once has anyone hit a pressure point on my outer wrist. True, we try to be controlled, so we are not hitting with full force of course.

Once I hit a pressure point on my classmates wrist and his forearm cramped up pretty bad. That's only happened once in 15 months. We were doing punching-blocking drills. My classmate was doing a punch to my nose and then a reverse punch to my solar plexus. My job was to block both punches using the same arm - 1,2. So, I was doing an inside-outside block (almost a backfist really) to the nose punch, and then bringing my wrist down across the top of his wrist during the reverse punch. It was the downward block that got him. I don't even know how I did that. It was an accident.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I’ll be the spoil sport here.
Even if the strike could kill it would have to be precise . Presuming that anyone here knows for sure if it could, they sure would not be admitting it over an open forum or tell how to do it.

 

[MBuzzy]

Something that helped me (although I still have problems with it) was to find "test dummies" and just stand around, finding pressure points on either other. Basically just start pressing on their arm until you find them. Not hard mind you, but just to determine where they are. then, with practice, you'll find it easier to strike the right place when you block and punch.

Also, buy an Anatomy book!!!!!! Understanding WHY they hurt and where stuff is helps A LOT.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Hey Andy, stop by some time and I'll be happy to work on this uppercut to the underarm with you. :uhyeah: