Uke = block, the misinterpretation

[exile]

You are very correct about fighting range. In Okinawan GoJu for example all indications point to a very close in fighting style. The Okinawans were all about grabbing an opponent. That is why a lot of their training implements were geared toward gripping power. The kicks are all very low which is our first indication of a very close in fighting art. The hand chamber is indeed not a means of cocking your fist for a punch, this is a very big misconception. The hand is pulling something in for a grappling defense, remember the Okinawans felt gripping power was very important. Block, punch, and kick are the first stages of the art. We must look for the art within the art. To many of us get stuck on a phrase such as a single block can end a fight. It can, when that so called block has many different meanings. Sparring has its age limatations and you don't see many older karate ka participating in it. But kata is limitless and it allows everyone at any age to continue their training way into advanved years. Amen for kata.

Thankyou sir for your experienced opinion.

The "chamber" hand pulling is exactly the way I was taught by my instructor. Drawing back to gain power or cocking doesn't make much sense for the use of a chamber. The two way action created by the pull or drawing in makes good self defense sense.

I wish more people taught and learned the way you obviously do. :karate:

A very good source on realistic kata bunkai is Lawrence Kane & Kris Wilder's book The Way of Kata. Like a lot of the more recent generation of guides to kata application, they give a set of guidelines for decoding the combative use of kata subsequences hidden with the camouflage of block-kick-punch terminology, and this is their guideline #5:a hand returning to chamber usually has something in it, and observe that

... both hands are utilized in almost all kata applications. Frequently the hand returning to chamber at the practitioner's side has something captured in it, particularly if it shown closed when performing the kata. Applications that include trapping an opponent's hand or foot consist of grabs, locks, joint dislocations, takedowns and throws.

When analyzing kata, it is important to pay attention to the offhand, the one not executing an obvious technique. As it returns to chamber it will frequently grab, pull, or trap an opponent's limb. Though often underrated and underutilized in the striking arts, grabs are an essential component of karate. They facilitate posting an opponent's weight over his or her leg so that a practitioner can effectively apply a joint kick, levering an arm for a lock or takedown, and whipping an arm to snap the head up and back, exposing the throat.​

​

(my emphasis). As you mention, seasoned, Gojo-ryu emphasizes grabs for these kinds of purposes, and both authors are Gojo practitioners. But it's not just Goju; Abernethy is a Wado-ryu practitioner, and as he says,

Any successful strike, throw, lock, etc. at [close] range is dependent upon your ability to grip, and hence control, your opponent... one grip that needs special attention is the hikite (pulling hand). Throughout the various kata movements it is very common to see one hand pulled back to the hip. This hand is referred to as the 'hikite'. If you ask most of today's karateka they will tell you that the hand is being held in a `ready position' or that it is there for aesthetic purposes... [but] it would seem that the true meaning of hikite is to control and twist the opponent's limbs so that they become unbalanced.​

​

.

(my emphasis). And in support of this interpretation, Abernethy quotes none other than Gichin Funakoshi himself, who writes of hikite in his 1925 book that 'the true meaning of the hikite, or pulling hand, is to grab the opponent's attacking hand and pull it in whilst twisting it as much as possible so that his body if forced to lean against the defender'. So you've go Goju, Wado and Shotokan all originally treating the chamber retraction as a grip pulling the attacker into the strike, extending the arm to set up a pin, or at least trapping it to immobilize the attacker while the defender moves in for the kill with elbow strikes to the the head and so on.

This emphasis on the trapping/controlling use of the so-called `retraction chamber' movement is one of the most frequently emphasized points in the new literature on realistic kata applications.

 

[TimoS]

I disagree and I'll tell you why

Disagree all you like, doesn't change the fact that the bunkai for the move is a block Trust me on that one

Sure there can be other uses for it, but the basic bunkai is still a block

 

[seasoned]

A very good source on realistic kata bunkai is Lawrence Kane & Kris Wilder's book The Way of Kata. Like a lot of the more recent generation of guides to kata application, they give a set of guidelines for decoding the combative use of kata subsequences hidden with the camouflage of block-kick-punch terminology, and this is their guideline #5:a hand returning to chamber usually has something in it, and observe that

... both hands are utilized in almost all kata applications. Frequently the hand returning to chamber at the practitioner's side has something captured in it, particularly if it shown closed when performing the kata. Applications that include trapping an opponent's hand or foot consist of grabs, locks, joint dislocations, takedowns and throws.​

When analyzing kata, it is important to pay attention to the offhand, the one not executing an obvious technique. As it returns to chamber it will frequently grab, pull, or trap an opponent's limb. Though often underrated and underutilized in the striking arts, grabs are an essential component of karate. They facilitate posting an opponent's weight over his or her leg so that a practitioner can effectively apply a joint kick, levering an arm for a lock or takedown, and whipping an arm to snap the head up and back, exposing the throat.​

(my emphasis). As you mention, seasoned, Gojo-ryu emphasizes grabs for these kinds of purposes, and both authors are Gojo practitioners. But it's not just Goju; Abernethy is a Wado-ryu practitioner, and as he says,

Any successful strike, throw, lock, etc. at [close] range is dependent upon your ability to grip, and hence control, your opponent... one grip that needs special attention is the hikite (pulling hand). Throughout the various kata movements it is very common to see one hand pulled back to the hip. This hand is referred to as the 'hikite'. If you ask most of today's karateka they will tell you that the hand is being held in a `ready position' or that it is there for aesthetic purposes... [but] it would seem that the true meaning of hikite is to control and twist the opponent's limbs so that they become unbalanced.​

.

(my emphasis). And in support of this interpretation, Abernethy quotes none other than Gichin Funakoshi himself, who writes of hikite in his 1925 book that 'the true meaning of the hikite, or pulling hand, is to grab the opponent's attacking hand and pull it in whilst twisting it as much as possible so that his body if forced to lean against the defender'. So you've go Goju, Wado and Shotokan all originally treating the chamber retraction as a grip pulling the attacker into the strike, extending the arm to set up a pin, or at least trapping it to immobilize the attacker while the defender moves in for the kill with elbow strikes to the the head and so on.

This emphasis on the trapping/controlling use of the so-called `retraction chamber' movement is one of the most frequently emphasized points in the new literature on realistic kata applications.

Very excellent post exile, most informative, thank you for the input.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm curious as to how you all practice basics. If you are saying that techniques are more then they seem, do you practice techniques like gedan barai etc by themselves? Or do you practice the components that make up the real applications for moves in the kata?

 

[exile]

I'm curious as to how you all practice basics. If you are saying that techniques are more then they seem, do you practice techniques like gedan barai etc by themselves? Or do you practice the components that make up the real applications for moves in the kata?

I don't actually practice basic techs by themselves. I practice hyungs and kata, as per our school curriculum, and I practice these forms both whole and in separate subsequences which correspond (on my own analysis, or on the bunkai of people who clearly know how find realistic applications in these forms) to complete combat scenarios (taking you, that is, from the initiation of the attack to the incapacitation of the attacker). I try to visual the particular subsequence I'm performing, whether as part of the whole form or in stand-alone mode, as a response to an actual physical attack. So the hadan makli/gedan barai movements are practiced as part of the combat sequence and visualized as, well, whatever move it is that they correspond to in the oyo I'm picturing for that particular subsequence. The gedan barai is typically a strike to a lowered head, but it is also part of a throw hingeing (so to speak) on the 180º pivot that is usually seen as nothing more than part of of the `mirror image' reversal of the performance direction so characteristic of the KMA forms, particularly at the colored belt ranks... and various other applications as well.

But since I see these simple kihon techs as just being components of whole combat training sequences, I don't see much value in doing them on their own....

 

[Makalakumu]

For myself, I practice the brick and morter type of techniques that make up the applications for the kata. We practice real strikes, locks, throws and blocks on pads, makiwara, and in partner drills. Rarely do we isolate individual movements from the kata unless we are learning the kata. This is different then most TSD schools and I was wondering if other karate schools had a similar approach.

 

[seasoned]

I'm curious as to how you all practice basics. If you are saying that techniques are more then they seem, do you practice techniques like gedan barai etc by themselves? Or do you practice the components that make up the real applications for moves in the kata?

Basics always first and daily because they contain the principles of the art. Off of those basics and principles will manifest the true intent of the technique. Case in point is the chamber talked about in earlier posts. A simple punch and chamber was done in our dojo over and over until that push pull motion was so ingrained in us that when we grappled it felt natural to grab and pull with one hand and push with the other to unbalance the opponent. If we were fortune to come up with their arm then it was pulled to our chamber because it felt natural. The next time you grab an arm pull it to your chamber and watch their elbow turn up if you are to their outside. As you pull back to chamber you go to a very comfortable position while in turn you put them in a very unnatural one. Basics teach principles, not just a technique. With the principle we can apply them in many situations. “Don’t teach me one thousand technique, but teach me a principle I can use in a thousand different techniques“. The Sanchin of Okinawan GoJu needs to be looked into by everyone. This kata holds the principles of this art J .

 

[seasoned]

For myself, I practice the brick and morter type of techniques that make up the applications for the kata. We practice real strikes, locks, throws and blocks on pads, makiwara, and in partner drills. Rarely do we isolate individual movements from the kata unless we are learning the kata. This is different then most TSD schools and I was wondering if other karate schools had a similar approach.

The brick and morter approach is interesting but even the morter needs to be mixed just right. Once you have mixed it a thousands times you don’t have to think about it any more. J

 

[TheOriginalName]

In my humble opinion i think it all comes down to the definition of "Uke".

To me Uke is the redirection of an attackers energy and momentum away from my body.

To many - and even to me when i first started learning (only 6 months ago...so please take that into account when reading this) - Uke may sound like only a bloke.

However if you drill the "blocks" you'll quickly learn that they can cause pain.....because not only are you redirecting their energy but you are also striking them, as well as opening them up to a counter attack.

So in my humble opinion "Uke" should be interpriated as not a "block" but a "striking block".

Again, this is just my opinion based upon what i have learnt and experienced so far in my journey....

 

[TimoS]

To me Uke is the redirection of an attackers energy and momentum away from my body

That's actually quite good definition

 

[Brian S]

In my humble opinion i think it all comes down to the definition of "Uke".

To me Uke is the redirection of an attackers energy and momentum away from my body.

To many - and even to me when i first started learning (only 6 months ago...so please take that into account when reading this) - Uke may sound like only a bloke.

However if you drill the "blocks" you'll quickly learn that they can cause pain.....because not only are you redirecting their energy but you are also striking them, as well as opening them up to a counter attack.

So in my humble opinion "Uke" should be interpriated as not a "block" but a "striking block".

Again, this is just my opinion based upon what i have learnt and experienced so far in my journey....

There is a problem with this type of practice. If I am bigger or stronger than my attacker then it works, if my attacker is the big and tough one, not so much.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

There are blocks within kata however are they just blocking techniques. Sometimes yes and sometimes no but they are there.

 

[TheOriginalName]

There is a problem with this type of practice. If I am bigger or stronger than my attacker then it works, if my attacker is the big and tough one, not so much.

In my opinion i do not believe this is a problem.
I am a small guy both in terms of height and weight but i do no see this as a problem when it comes to deflecting energy and momentum.
If i were to attempt to absorb the energy of an attack i would agree - being bigger and stronger is an advantage however it only takes a very small amount of energy to cause an attackers punch\kick to be redirected.

 

[TimoS]

however it only takes a very small amount of energy to cause an attackers punch\kick to be redirected.

Yes and if you are able to use taisabaki, all the better. Why meet force with force, if you can just get out of the way of the incoming punch/kick and then block/redirect it

 

[exile]

Yes and if you are able to use taisabaki, all the better. Why meet force with force, if you can just get out of the way of the incoming punch/kick and then block/redirect it

I've seen this idea very dramatically illustrated at a Combat Hapkido seminar with Gm. John Pelligrini. He can't weigh more than around 160 lbs., but the effortless way he was able to deflect full force punches thrown by some of the massively powerful young Marine guys who were training with us—they were pretty bloody intimidating-looking!—was astonishing. And he was able to follow up these deflections with traps, pins and throws that had these guys going down to the floor hard—and he wasn't really exerting himself too much. They weren't being in the least compliant, either.

The trick, of course, is knowing how to do it. When you've been in the business as long as he has, it shows. But I also think it's possible to learn, and train, this same approach in any of the MAs; I think it's actually a kind of common heritage the TMAs share. What could be more reasonable than not getting hit, but instead redirecting the attacker's energy so you control him?

 

[chinto]

There is a problem with this type of practice. If I am bigger or stronger than my attacker then it works, if my attacker is the big and tough one, not so much.

i must disagree with that statement. take a seisan block, it is a block with both soft and hard element in it, but more then that it is designed when used optimaly to damage the elbow joint. it has the ability to be used as a brake agenst the attacking punch as well as redirecting and cousing pain. there is not really an element of strenth to it. infact the harder you punch at me the more efficent the block will be at injuring you by hyperextending your elbow. most systems of combat rather quickly look to use the strenth and speed and power of an attack agenst its self.

 

[seasoned]

Each style or art of self defense has at its root, theory and principles. This is the part of anyone’s art that can not be taught. You can learn techniques, but to learn the essence of ones art you must feel it. You can not teach feeling you must experience it for yourself. This feeling is where your art begins to separate the beginner from the master. An art in time and hard work should produce an artist. When I first learned Karate my kata was filled with blocks. In time when I began to spar I would use these blocks and at times they would work. What became very apparent to me after a while was the fact that these blocks did not work well with the more experienced students and almost never when sparring my Sensei. Some how when we sparred Sensei, he was never where he was suppose to be when we attacked him but always showed up to cream us. So I guess the question we are all asking and defining here is, are there blocks or not? I would have to say yes, but not the same as when I learned them. As a novice a block was a block, but as I advanced and started to practice the more higher kata I discovered proper foot work along with proper body shifting would transfer my blocks into a whole new realm. With the opening of the hand when blocking and a more circular approach derived from the advanced kata my blocks started to blend with strikes. When doing drills the blocks turned into traps and deflections. Once we incorporated Tensho kata which is the pushing hands kata of Okinawan GoJu did we truly start to feel our opponent , and with this feeling came a sense of moving with them and to help them move toward their destruction. Because Tensho was derived from White Crane, and White Crane theory and principles were brought back from China by Chojun Miyagi it stands to reason that there is more then meets the eye here. White Crane and Karate did not seem to mix well, or did it? What part of White Crane was being blended with karate? If you were to go to art school to learn to paint you would be given techniques on how to hold the brush along with proper brush strokes and the blending of colors. With this knowledge alone would you become an artist? I think any serious student of martial arts in time needs to move past what he has learned and begin to feel within himself what the art is saying. In my art of GoJu which means Hard/soft I have spent a life time trying to understand where my art would take me in my older years. Well now, by some standards, I have arrived. I can tell you that from this vantage point my mental outlook pertaining to martial arts looks and feels nothing like it did when I was banging with the best of them. Everything in life is subject to change and our chosen art is no different. I feel that with an open mind and a yearning to understand we can take this art into old age with the confidence that we will not be side lined but will continue to learn and if need be kick some butt. Where are your blocks taking you?

 

[punisher73]

"Uke" as a term means "receiving", so when we do a drill there is tori and uke. One person gives and the other receives the technique.

To use the example of Shrek. Kata is like an onion, it has a lot of layers the more you peel off to get to the core of it where the seeds are at.

I think kata is designed like this. You have the most "basic" layer that can be used by a beginning student. In this case, block/punch/kick method and that is the most obvious layer. Then there are parts where the basic layer doesn't always make the most sense and you have to look at a deeper level of the movement and discover the "okuden" or hidden meanings of the kata/movement. Okuden also means "inner teaching" as well, so it doesn't mean that it is hidden from site completely, but it is a deeper level of learning.

The okuden are hidden in plain site. I don't believe the analysis of kata wherein practicioners add in sets of movements between transistions in kata that are not there and say that it was the "okuden" that was taken out and hidden. You might be able to do certain moves and graft other things in there for a different idea or concept, but it is not the strategy that lies in that particular kata nor an analysis of it's deeper meanings.

So to make my long answer short...I think that sometimes a block is just a block at it's basic level and then with experience and training, it can be so much more.

 

[chinto]

Each style or art of self defense has at its root, theory and principles. This is the part of anyone’s art that can not be taught. You can learn techniques, but to learn the essence of ones art you must feel it. You can not teach feeling you must experience it for yourself. This feeling is where your art begins to separate the beginner from the master. An art in time and hard work should produce an artist. When I first learned Karate my kata was filled with blocks. In time when I began to spar I would use these blocks and at times they would work. What became very apparent to me after a while was the fact that these blocks did not work well with the more experienced students and almost never when sparring my Sensei. Some how when we sparred Sensei, he was never where he was suppose to be when we attacked him but always showed up to cream us. So I guess the question we are all asking and defining here is, are there blocks or not? I would have to say yes, but not the same as when I learned them. As a novice a block was a block, but as I advanced and started to practice the more higher kata I discovered proper foot work along with proper body shifting would transfer my blocks into a whole new realm. With the opening of the hand when blocking and a more circular approach derived from the advanced kata my blocks started to blend with strikes. When doing drills the blocks turned into traps and deflections. Once we incorporated Tensho kata which is the pushing hands kata of Okinawan GoJu did we truly start to feel our opponent , and with this feeling came a sense of moving with them and to help them move toward their destruction. Because Tensho was derived from White Crane, and White Crane theory and principles were brought back from China by Chojun Miyagi it stands to reason that there is more then meets the eye here. White Crane and Karate did not seem to mix well, or did it? What part of White Crane was being blended with karate? If you were to go to art school to learn to paint you would be given techniques on how to hold the brush along with proper brush strokes and the blending of colors. With this knowledge alone would you become an artist? I think any serious student of martial arts in time needs to move past what he has learned and begin to feel within himself what the art is saying. In my art of GoJu which means Hard/soft I have spent a life time trying to understand where my art would take me in my older years. Well now, by some standards, I have arrived. I can tell you that from this vantage point my mental outlook pertaining to martial arts looks and feels nothing like it did when I was banging with the best of them. Everything in life is subject to change and our chosen art is no different. I feel that with an open mind and a yearning to understand we can take this art into old age with the confidence that we will not be side lined but will continue to learn and if need be kick some butt. Where are your blocks taking you?

ohh ya,I agree with you! Things do change as you learn more. that just a block becomes more as you proceed to learn more. however, it still is a block when it needs to be...( the last is more a coment on the tread)

 

[chinto]

"Uke" as a term means "receiving", so when we do a drill there is tori and uke. One person gives and the other receives the technique.

To use the example of Shrek. Kata is like an onion, it has a lot of layers the more you peel off to get to the core of it where the seeds are at.

I think kata is designed like this. You have the most "basic" layer that can be used by a beginning student. In this case, block/punch/kick method and that is the most obvious layer. Then there are parts where the basic layer doesn't always make the most sense and you have to look at a deeper level of the movement and discover the "okuden" or hidden meanings of the kata/movement. Okuden also means "inner teaching" as well, so it doesn't mean that it is hidden from site completely, but it is a deeper level of learning.

The okuden are hidden in plain site. I don't believe the analysis of kata wherein practicioners add in sets of movements between transistions in kata that are not there and say that it was the "okuden" that was taken out and hidden. You might be able to do certain moves and graft other things in there for a different idea or concept, but it is not the strategy that lies in that particular kata nor an analysis of it's deeper meanings.

So to make my long answer short...I think that sometimes a block is just a block at it's basic level and then with experience and training, it can be so much more.

yes you always will find more as you dig deeper. the old way to tell if some one was a master was to see if they could show you 5 or more bunkai for every movement in the old traditional kata. ( and for you who don't beleave in hiden meanings try it some time.. there are a minumum of 5 techniques for every MOVEMENT and not every series in kata..some are not exactly the same movement, but its there beleave me!)