U.S. Headed Down the Wrong Track??

[MA-Caver]

NYTimes.com
81% in Poll Say Nation Is Headed on Wrong Track
Friday April 4, 8:38 pm ET
By DAVID LEONHARDT and MARJORIE CONNELLY
http://biz.yahoo.com/nytimes/080404/1194761875466.html
Americans are more dissatisfied with the country’s direction than at any time since the New York Times/CBS News poll began asking about the subject in the early 1990s, according to the latest poll.

In the poll, 81 percent of respondents said they believed “things have pretty seriously gotten off on the wrong track,” up from 69 percent a year ago and 35 percent in early 2002.

Although the public mood has been darkening since the early days of the war in Iraq, it has taken a new turn for the worse in the last few months, as the economy has seemed to slip into recession. There is now nearly a national consensus that the country faces significant problems.

81% that's quite a lot. It's going to take a big effort for the republicans to pull their butts outta the fire and make people want to vote republican this coming November. The democrats that are holding the Senate and House in majority are equally to blame.

All the more need for a multi-party system of government. New ideas new methods to fix old problems instead of the old way to fix an old problem.
May sound like a multi party system of 4 or 5 different political groups would cause more dissent and arguments and confusion but I think it'll help get the people who should be running this country, more aligned with whats going on in Washington. Telling Washington what to do instead of the other way around.
The low morale is stemming from helplessness because of all the national security worries being heaped upon and any loud or vocal opposition may be viewed upon as Anti-American and a potential terrorist cell lying in wait.

*sniff* hmm getting a tiny bit of a whiff of socialism here.

 

[tellner]

Headed down the wrong track?

That is so understated as to be actively misleading.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Maybe the American people need to wake up and stop wanting Big Government to take care of every little thing, and stop supporting the "big 2" aand start actually demanding accountability of their elected officials, and take control back?

 

[Sukerkin]

It's not my country, gentlemen but I think that Bob makes a very good point there.

I'm not so sure that a multi-party system will help matters particularly. Somewhat like proportional representation, it sounds like a good idea in the beginning but the consequence is most likely to be akin to the Polish Parliament i.e. nothing will get done.

 

[MA-Caver]

Maybe the American people need to wake up and stop wanting Big Government to take care of every little thing, and stop supporting the "big 2" aand start actually demanding accountability of their elected officials, and take control back?

Well the thing is people seem to forget that it's within our rights to do so by the constitution that if we don't like who ever is in office we can throw them out. We do that via electoral processes sure, but we keep re-electing these guys and they keep doing the same thing... letting Big Business tell them what to do instead of the little guys. And why not because the little guys don't give them paid vacations or other little "thank you" incentives for passing this or that bill so that their businesses can make more money.

An AA speaker I love to listen to, talked about how important it is for us to get in touch with our feelings he comments on that... further saying: "... the government is terrified of us (the people) getting in touch with our feelings... you realize that if we were all in touch with our feelings we'd throw all these mother****ers out!..."

A little revolution is good now and again.

 

[Sukerkin]

An AA speaker I love to listen to, talked about how important it is for us to get in touch with our feelings he comments on that... further saying: "... the government is terrified of us (the people) getting in touch with our feelings... you realize that if we were all in touch with our feelings we'd throw all these mother****ers out!..."

A wise man.

A little revolution is good now and again.

Another very wise man.

 

[tellner]

Or maybe Americans will wake up and realize that The Sacred Markte (LAAAA!) isn't

• Omnipotent
• Omniscient
• Omnibenevolent
• Efficient
• Equitable
• Capable of Long-Term Planning

When something has to be there today, tomorrow and next year you can't trust the need to be filled marketmagically. And you absolutely can not trust any for-profit firm to do anything for the public good unless doing so would serve its own good more than any other alternative. We've had twenty eight years of deregulation, "government-business partnership", "the magic of the Market", privatizing, and self-regulation. It. Has. Not. Worked. Far from the government doing "every little thing" for us it has gone further in the other direction than any time in the last century or so.

Profit is a useful motive for a lot of things. It is not magic. It does not work automatically. And it does not work past the next quarter's balance sheet most of the time.

What's required is careful planning and consideration with a clear view and the ****-canning of the last three decades of wishful thinking and naive faith that if we just punish the poor, reward the rich and vilify the essence of democracy that everything will miraculously be Good.

 

[Sukerkin]

Given that, as far as I know, Tellner and I are the only qualified economists on the board and we agree with each other then perhaps it's time the Sacred Market got put back where it should be?

There are some things that should not be driven by profit motive. Self interest is an engine for innovation, there is no gainsaying of that but it is also blind and forgetful. A mixed economy is one that works - we've found out to our cost what trying to be like America brings us:

A National Grid on it's knees through under-investment
A National Health Service that is far from First World any longer .. through under-investment
A Royal Mail that has lost the sterling reputation it once had and is closing Post Officers all over ... through under-investment
A rail system that is falling apart through ... oh ... under investment
A telecommunications system that makes vast profits by scalping those too gullible to know better

Well you get the picture. Short term profit taking can make a few rich at the long term expense of everyone else. Servicing the greed of shareholders (oh, sorry, can't call it 'greed' can we, it's 'accelerated return on investment by liquidation of taxpayers assets') reduces provision of services to a level below minimum.

As well as taking the political leaders by the scruff of the neck, the banking system needs to be returned to a sensible mode of operation - trust me, the fantasy-land of the past few decades cannot be sustained.

If radical steps are not taken to reverse the trends then the shadow of the Depression of the '30's will return (except for the drug dealers of course, who thrive under any circumstances).

 

[MA-Caver]

Well you get the picture. Short term profit taking can make a few rich at the long term expense of everyone else. Servicing the greed of shareholders (oh, sorry, can't call it 'greed' can we, it's 'accelerated return on investment by liquidation of taxpayers assets') reduces provision of services to a level below minimum.

No, you were right the first time mate, but I'll just call it for what it really is... Greed!

 

[newGuy12]

Yes, this is what it is, plain and simple.

 

[Makalakumu]

One thing that I'd like people to consider is that we live in a planned society. Whatever "wrong track" we are on is actually just a continuation of the same Hegelian dialectic philosophy that gave birth to other "wrong tracks" in the past.

In MN, we have saying, "if you don't like the weather, wait 5 minutes." This is sort of like that except that some person down the road decided what the weather would be at this time and planned to make it happen. You put on a sweater because someone constructed the conditions for you to do so. You discard that sweater before it has lost any actual usefulness because someone has constructed a reality where that sweater has no usefulness.

So, what track are we headed down? I'm sure the media will tell you. I'm sure that a bunch of true believers on both sides will tell you. The one thing to keep in mind is that the people who planned this society believed in Hegel's philosophy. In particular, the part about the Thesis + Antithesis = Synthesis. If you control the Thesis and Antithesis, you control the Synthesis.

So, what track are we headed down? I don't know. Someone filled our heads with thoughts of utopia and dumbed everyone down so that it would eclipse the real machinations. Only real students of history will know that we haven't reached the end of this journey yet.

It will come, as it has before.

One of my favorite quotes is an old german proverb...

"The dead are not dead. The past is not past."

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The US is on the track initially desired by Alexander Hamilton, worked for by Henry Clay, and firmly put upon at gunpoint by Abraham Lincoln. It is a track to big government, corporate subsidies, and empire.

This track is NOT the one that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the majority of those who created this Union of once seperate and independant nations envisioned, nor governed.

There is a saying, "Washington and Jefferson created the republic; Lincoln destroyed it."

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

The fix might be here:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson

 

[Makalakumu]

The US is on the track initially desired by Alexander Hamilton, worked for by Henry Clay, and firmly put upon at gunpoint by Abraham Lincoln. It is a track to big government, corporate subsidies, and empire.

This track is NOT the one that George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the majority of those who created this Union of once seperate and independant nations envisioned, nor governed.

There is a saying, "Washington and Jefferson created the republic; Lincoln destroyed it."

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." - Thomas Jefferson

The fix might be here:
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Thomas Jefferson

Bob, you are a terrorist.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Well, so were the Founding Fathers.

 

[Makalakumu]

Well, so were the Founding Fathers.

Certainly. Seems like its time to change the history books.

Oh wait, that already happened. It's amazing how little of our founding father's writing is actually found in a modern textbook.

They have become nothing more then weapons of conformity.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

 

[MA-Caver]

Bob, you are a terrorist.

Well, so were the Founding Fathers.

Ah, but now they're known as patriots.

I tell people. I love my country. I'd be willing to die for it. I do not, however; love/trust my government, nor shall I be willing to die for THEM. They have not shown that they are willing to die for me. Our soldiers, yes. But presently they're dying for Iraqi's who, do need our help, but I hardly think they need as much blood as we've so far been shedding for them. But the government officials... will they give up what they have to ensure I keep what is my own? My life, liberty and pursuit of happiness?
Am I willing? Yes, if need be, without hesitation, but not on the whim of those wishing to maintain their seats and power over me, unless they are as willing as I am in defense of (our) native soil. These United States Of America.
If this soil, this country, these people are surely threatened then I shall do my part, however that I best may.
But let me be assured that my sacrifice, my blood and the blood of my brothers and compatriots in arms will not be shed in vain, for it is precious to me as it is as pure as the land where I was born.

Ok enough of that... eventually I think that 81% is going to get higher. I've always said that if a people get tired of how things are done, they'll take care of it themselves.
I think this will happen with the Somalians, Ethiopians and other starving countries being runned and argued and fought over by so called War-Lords vying for the ultimate seat of power in their lands. They can and will take care of themselves. Just as I believe the Iraqi's and North Korean citizens will take care of the oppression and bloodshed in their respective countries.
The U.S. as a police force should help out... when a outsider threatens the security of another nation... we should help. But inner turmoil and strife should be best left to the people involved. We need to focus on ourselves and make sure we remain strong to protect ourselves and our liberties from outside invasions. The dispersement of troops to die in a foreign land is not the way to maintain national security IMO.
81% of the people are beginning to see this as well.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

Given that, as far as I know, Tellner and I are the only qualified economists on the board and we agree with each other then perhaps it's time the Sacred Market got put back where it should be?

I don't mean to be rude, but this is the second time I have heard this statement on this forum. Are you saying that because you and Tellner are the "only qualified economists on the board" (whatever that means), that we should defer to your opinion in all things economic? That we should ignore any other information that we have come across that directly conflicts with what you and Tellner state.

I would agree, that perhaps your opinion should possibly be weighed more heavily in this area then others on this board, but not that their opinion should be ignored. That's like saying that just because I'm a police officer, on any issue regarding law enforcement, you should just agree with me.

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational. But I just wonder as to the purpose of a statement like that.

 

[elder999]

I don't mean to be rude, but this is the second time I have heard this statement on this forum. Are you saying that because you and Tellner are the "only qualified economists on the board" (whatever that means), that we should defer to your opinion in all things economic? That we should ignore any other information that we have come across that directly conflicts with what you and Tellner state.

I would agree, that perhaps your opinion should possibly be weighed more heavily in this area then others on this board, but not that their opinion should be ignored. That's like saying that just because I'm a police officer, on any issue regarding law enforcement, you should just agree with me.

Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational. But I just wonder as to the purpose of a statement like that.

I kinda agree-it certainly isn't as though anyone has deferred to me as a physicist or engineer, and I don't expect them to-though, I am awfully damned good at what I do, and certain of what I know-and think they'd often be foolish not to-though not always.

While he did draw on the work of Adam Smith, Malthus would hardly agree with him on everything-and while only passingly familiar with economics ("voodoo science, as far as I can tell :lol: ) I know that you could have a room full of "qualified economists" in one room and they'd hardly all be in agreement about a given economic situation.

As for the blessed market, I agree with Tellner and Sukerkin-I also think our country is headed down the wrong path, and has been since before Eisenhower's "dangers of the military-industrial complex" speech-which is funny, considering what I do for a living.

Should have made this a poll.......

 

[newGuy12]

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
Thomas Jefferson

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

"Oh, please keep us safe from the terrorists at any cost!!!" Does not lead to a free and open society. There's a choice, safety or freedom.