Troublesome poomse

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by NinjaChristian, May 3, 2016.

Tags:
  1. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    So each poomse is supposed to end up where you started, but in a couple of my poomse I end up off my starting point at a consistent distance. I know about how one side is dominant, how stances will be longer/wider with one foot than the other, but even when using the boards on a wooden floor to make sure my stances are even I still end up off.
    '
    In the poomse I have trouble with, Won-Hyo, I always end up about one shoulder width and a half to the right of my starting point. I talked with my instructor about this, but for some reason I couldn't communicate the problem well enough to him and he kept thinking that I didn't understand (I do understand) how a right or left stance is always slightly longer/wider than the other.

    here is the poomse sheet[​IMG]
    the width and lengths of relevent stances in the poomse are(from the ball of one foot to the other):

    back stance or L stance: 1/2 shoulder width wide by one shoulder width long

    front stance or extended stance: one shoulder width wide by two shoulder widths long

    I believe that the lengths of the stances are irrelevant since I consistently end up directly to the right of my starting point, neither ahead of it or behind it. I don't include the fixed stances since after stepping into the fixed stance you always bring the foot back without stepping.

    The main problem seems to be at move 12 and 25. At 12 you step in to an extended stance which moves you to the right of the center line(defining center line by standing with feet together) by about 3/4 a shoulder width since your left foot is about 1/4 a shoulder width to the left of your center line because of the back stance. After move 25 you bring your right foot to your left foot, moving you an additional shoulder width from the center line. These moves end you up at about 1 3/4 shoulder widths from your center line

    I have looked up videos of people doing Won-Hyo, and everyone else seems to do the same thing and end up in about the same place that I do. The black belts at my dojarng, including my instructor, all say that in Won-Hyo, and all other forms, that you should end up at the place you started. A 3rd degree black belt showed me the form, and she ended up in the right place... but she narrowed some of her stances to do it.

    Can anyone tell me why this is? is this an exception to the rule, just no one says it is? Am I doing something wrong?
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  2. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    158
    You have several issues.

    1. This is a "Tul" not a "Poomse"
    2. The solution is move 26-27 and can only be found by looking at the specific foot / stepping diagram in the encyclopedia. (This will occur again in other patterns) After the Side Piercing Kick in 26 your right foot is placed one shoulder width toward the rear wall (The one behind you when you started commonly referred to as direction "C") and one shoulder width to the wall that was on your left when you started commonly known as the "B" direction. This will eliminate most if not all of your ending up to the right. Can't say why you do not end up in front of where you started.
    3. Stated Stance Parameters are off. >>back stance or L stance: 1/2 shoulder width wide by one shoulder width long<< It's one inch wide and Shoulder 1.5 Shoulder from big toe to footsword.
    - front stance or extended stance: one shoulder width wide by two shoulder widths long- Walkingg stance is 1 Shoulder width from center of insteps and 1.5 Shoulder widths long big toe to big toe.
    - The main problem seems to be at move 12 and 25. At 12 you step in to an extended stance - Sorry , I do not follow this at all

    4. FYI, Dan Gun - empirically ends up about one foot length behind the start point.
     
  3. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    58
    I really enjoy learning about all the proper measurements of stances, etc. There is none of this in my school. It is interesting to see how in depth the moves can be broken down.
     
  4. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    Thank you I will discuss it with my instructor. I believe I end up directly to the right because my back stances on moves 9 - 11 are not as deep as they should be.

    Our measurements for the back stance are different, but nearly identical. I am measuring the distance between the balls of the feet, since the ball of the foot is the point on which you rotate I find it convenient to do so. The back stance you define is slightly wider than mine, since I do the stance with my heels in a line.

    I do not understand why you are comparing a walking stance to a front stance. If by the terminology you use they are the same, than in my dojang our stances are simply longer then the ones you practice.

    On 12 since the front stance is wider than the back stances it moves you to the right of your center line. after move 25, instead of doing what you said I was taught to bring you right foot down from the side kick, putting it directly next to you right foot while turning left to original facing. This moves you another shoulder width from the center line.

    I have noticed this rather annoying fact, thank you for pointing it out.
     
  5. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Most of the students at my school do back stances with their heels aligned, our instructor is perfectly ok with it. Foot placement can vary from organization to organization.

    I thought these were the same too, but I learned through this forum that they are in fact different.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    58
    I wish I could give you more advice, but I come from a school that is big on sport sparring. We do forms as cool downs between workouts. We will spend maybe 20 minutes a month on forms. That is why I find it so awesome that forms can be broken down to the slightest detail.
     
  7. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    My school is very big on forms. It is very rare for a week to go by where no forms are practiced. And yea the details can get really, really specific. in Won-Hyo, the twin forearm block-knife hand strike? You can do it lots of different ways by only adjusting the pause in between them. A longer pause emphasizes the individual techniques, while a shorter pause makes for an exciting combo. I do it with almost no pause between the twin forearm block and the knife hand strike, than a slight pause as I draw in, than I push off into the lung punch. The lack of a pause between the first two techniques builds excitement, and the slight pause for drama, than a quick and powerful lunge seems like an explosion after the previous techniques. a snap crackle ba-BOOM kinda thing.
     
  8. Azulx

    Azulx Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2016
    Messages:
    639
    Likes Received:
    197
    Trophy Points:
    58
    I do a small pause between the block and knife hand strike . I haven't practiced that form in about a year, so I just had to do it to see how I actually do it. The form that I am doing now is Hwa-rang.
     
  9. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    158
    The patterns were designed by General Choi with tremendous input from Senior ranks. I use his current text for pattern specification parameters. That is the reason for the comparison. I have nothing else to go by.

    Does your school have a written reference for stance lengths , widths and point of measurement, or have you drawn your own conclusion for convenience?

    In the 1965 Book there was "Forward Stance" later renamed "Walking Stance" (In English) "Front Stance" was not a term that was used. So, I cannot tell if "Front Stance' as you use it is the same or different than anything else. "Back Stance" was renamed "L Stance" (In English) In the 1972 Book and Later he also refined specifications for stance lengths with respect to each persons own foot and Shoulder parameters and where to measure from.

    Since General Choi was the ultimate final designer of the pattern,and he designed them to end up on the starting point, (more or less) if you follow some parameter other than what he was using, for instance what your school or instructor dictates there is no way any outsider could help you figure out where the issue lies with regard to not finishing on the same spot.

    His parameters create a distinct relationship for stance lengths and Widths i.e the following are all 1.5 Shoulders width. Length of walking stance, Length of l Stance, Width of Sitting Stance. Length of Fixed Stance, Length of Low stance. (Note: Points of measurement i.e. Toe, Footsword, reverse footsword vary depending on stance.
     
  10. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    for the back stance I wrote what I measured, since at my school a certain length isn't emphasized, but weight distribution is. for the front stance I wrote is very specific, 1 shoulder width wide, 2 shoulder width long. We don't have written measurements, they are all oral (as far as I know).

     
  11. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    158
    I understand. The closest thing I could find to "Back Stance" is the "L Stance" since that is what the name was changed to from the 1965 to the 1972 Book.

    This is what you wrote
    "back stance or L stance: 1/2 shoulder width wide by one shoulder width long"
    If you are making it 1/2 shoulder width wide and the specs are for 1" to wind up in the same spot that could be another reason to be off the mark.

    With regard to :
    "We don't have written measurements, they are all oral (as far as I know)."

    There is an old saying: "The longest memory is not as good as the short pencil. "

    You deserve credit for your analysis. Perhaps you might volunteer your services to your instructor and fellow students to create a written record.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    thank you. I might wright it down at some point, but for the stances besides the front stance I have not learned the exact specifications yet(I just know the weight distribution). It's a good idea to write them down, I think I will.
    I watched an old video elsewhere on the forum showing someone doing the forms, and they managed to end up slightly to the left of centerline by doing the steps in between the moves slightly differently.
     
  13. Earl Weiss

    Earl Weiss Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2009
    Messages:
    2,609
    Likes Received:
    368
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Videos, even official ones supervised by General choi are good tools. They are not always perfect tools. If it was the old video that is on the "Differences thread the person does not do the step I noted after the last side kick for Won Hyo, so viewed from the front that would leave them to the left of the starting point. However, many parameters were different in published texts than they are now and later texts provided a lot more detail for things like stepping.

    I have literally judged the best in the world at 2 ITF championships plus one World Cup. . On some occasions it was the one who came closest to the starting point that made the deciding factor.

    So, if the best in the world can't always be perfect, the rest of us have a difficult task.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  14. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    So I did the math on a spread sheet, and with the assumption that my stances are perfect, I found that I should end up exactly 1 4/6 shoulder widths to the right of my starting point. I also found that my back stances during the form (during the double knife hand blocks) are deeper, about 1 1/3 shoulder widths in length.
     
  15. TrueJim

    TrueJim Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,006
    Likes Received:
    370
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Location:
    Virginia
    FYI I have this exact same problem with Taegeuk Il Jang. I wind up a stride behind the starting spot. And when I do the math on it, I can't see how it could wind up any other way unless you "cheat" on some of the stances. I.e., you could make the long stances a little too long on the way up the stem, then a little too short on the way back...then you could wind up on the starting spot, but that's the only way that I can see.
    • On the DA1 segment you turn left by moving your left foot first, which (for essentially all Taegeuk forms) takes your body's center slightly behind the DA1 line.
    • Then you turn 180 clockwise right by moving the right foot to perform the RA1 segment. But doing so moves your body's center even more in the NA direction. By this point you're a good shoulder's width behind the RA1 line.
    • Then you do the first long stance up the stem in the GA direction, and then immediately turn 90 right into the RA2 segment. But even if you had started on the RA1 line (which you didn't, since you were already a tad behind RA1), now you'll pull the right foot forward only half a stride to turn right, and at best it's only the left side of your body that would be on the RA2 line, with the center of your body still a little bit behind the RA2 line. But even that's not this case, since you didn't really start on the RA1 line to begin with (you started about a shoulder-width behind RA1).
    • In other words, the problem keeps compounding throughout the form...every turn -- if done correctly -- keeps taking you a bit back from the line you're supposed to be on. So then when it's time to do the two long strides to return to the starting position...you'll wind up way too far back.
    I don't know what the right way to fix this is. I guess "cheat" on the stances up and down the stem.
     
  16. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    I hate the idea of "cheating" because it means that you are going to practice some of the stances incorrectly, possibly enforcing bad habits that could damage your balance. In my form there are a few steps that are not on the form sheet, nor are they specifically implied by it. funny thing is, these steps are what cause me to end up off my starting point. I want to make some minor changes to these steps so that when I do the form I end up where I started, but i'm going to talk to my instructor about it first.
     
  17. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,758
    Likes Received:
    1,686
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    Honestly, unless you are performing in a tournament or demo, it does not matter too much if you end up where you start. I would much rather do all the stances correctly and end up slightly off, then change the stances to end 'properly'
     
  18. NinjaChristian

    NinjaChristian Green Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2016
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    33
    I do my form for tournament, so it would be nice if I ended where I started. I am not about to do any of my stances wrong, though. but even for tournament, ending up off your starting point does not seem to be that big of a deal if you do the rest of your form well enough. The problem is if you are competing against someone who is just as good as you are, how far off the starting point you are might be the determining factor (referencing Earl Weiss's comment here).
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  19. Jaeimseu

    Jaeimseu 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2011
    Messages:
    839
    Likes Received:
    220
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Austin, Texas, USA
    Yeah, most people end up behind their starting position on 1 jang. Actually, quite a lot of people end up a full apkubi behind the starting point. You have to be very careful about the width of the apseogi, be sure to pivot only on the balls of the feet when turning, and really visualize the lines you want to follow, and then it's still tough to finish perfectly on 1 jang.

    If you cheat the last two stances by half a foot length or so you can probably land in the right spot.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. kempodisciple

    kempodisciple MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    5,758
    Likes Received:
    1,686
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    New York
    Ok, then this is much more important. Make sure that you do not 'cheat' your stances in the tournament when you are doing it though-if they see that could be an issue.
     

Share This Page