Transgenders in martial arts

[Steve]

I completely disagree with this. I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes. If you have male chromo, you's a male. If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl. Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it. Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.

It's funny, because we do that all the time when we call someone "sensei" or "sifu." I mean, we're not pretending they're Japanese or Chinese, but we're respecting their preference for how they want to be addressed. I know from personal experience that some (not all) of these guys believe they are ancient samurai trapped in a modern, white guy's body. And, really, so what? If they believe that, fine. No skin off my nose.

That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training. I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.

And if that's your personal opinion, great. You're entitled to it. Just understand that when you try to apply your personal opinion to a professional interaction, things change. Professionally, a school is subject to legal considerations as well as simple business considerations. It's not personal. Literally.

 

[Druid11]

I completely disagree with this. I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes. If you have male chromo, you's a male. If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl. Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it. Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.

That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training. I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.

Everyone carries at least one X chromosome, the "chick" chromosome. Does that mean you're half a chick? What about it someone who is born with the chromosomes XXY or XXYY (both real conditions BTW)? Should those people be considered some third sex just because they don't conform to what you think it means to be a man or woman? Gender is much more than just what your chromosomes are. I see no reason not to respect someone else and how they feel about themselves by referring to them by their preferred pronoun.

 

[JR 137]

As a curiousity question...

Are these women (whom were previously men) bigger and stronger than any woman you'll ever encounter? Women come in all shapes and sizes. I have seen women (born as women and stayed as women) who are over 6ft tall, weigh quite a bit, and are stronger than a lot of men out there. While the "average" woman is smaller and weaker than the "average" man, women who are a good amount bigger and stronger than that aren't exactly rare. And who's more likely to attack you, a woman your size or smaller, or a bigger and stronger woman?

I'm not saying you have to accept anything. If the training hall is no longer right for you, leave. No one should be forced to be somewhere they're not comfortable. But realize staying or leaving is your issue, not everyone else's who's there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I completely disagree with this. I do agree that "genitals do not matter", what matters is chromosomes. If you have male chromo, you's a male. If ya got chick chromo, you's a girl. Now you can be a skinny, pretty, effeminate male or you can be a burly female with a shaved head BUT you're stuck with a certain combination of X/Y and that's it. Maybe I like being addressed as Chinese, but that don't make it so.

That said - While I won't call someone a gender they aren't, I will call them by the name they choose AND I could not care less, when it comes to training. I'd rather train with a transgender who put forth real effort and displayed well earned skills than someone who's lifestyle I agreed with BUT was a wussy slacker.

And you can spot that X/Y chromosome when you meet someone? There's more than that simple bit of genetics involved in gender, even in a purely physical sense.

 

[JR 137]

Everyone carries at least one X chromosome, the "chick" chromosome. Does that mean you're half a chick? What about it someone who is born with the chromosomes XXY or XXYY (both real conditions BTW)? Should those people be considered some third sex just because they don't conform to what you think it means to be a man or woman? Gender is much more than just what your chromosomes are. I see no reason not to respect someone else and how they feel about themselves by referring to them by their preferred pronoun.

The way I look at it, call everyone what they want to be called. Treat everyone with respect until they've done something to you to treat them otherwise.

Follow that, and life gets a bit easier.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Don't care.

Female only is a marketing tool anyway.

you know you are asking for it right lol.

 

[JowGaWolf]

For me personally it wouldn't bother me as long as this stuff isn't going on lol.

But seriously it wouldn't bother me personally, However because of where I live I know that there would be more than one student and many parents who would be uncomfortable with the person training in the same school. Now if you couldn't tell it the person was a man or a woman originally, then that person can fly under the radar and go unnoticed but if the person clearly looks like a man dressed up as a woman then, yeah there will be problems in the school and with the other students.

With that said I can't say that it would be the same way if the woman was dressed like a man. Just from the U.S. it seems that the transgender discussion is one-sided where the person in question is a man dressing like a woman.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I respect people of all sexualies and gender identities and I hope everyone can have a nice discussion on the topic.

That being said I've had to train with a few transgendered people over the last few years and although they are good martial artists I'm not exactly comfortable with seeing them appear in women's martial art classes. They are built differently both having male parts (I'm talking about the male ones) and are generally larger then most girls, giving them an advantage and making for some awkard situations.

I'm wondering what your guys's thoughts on the subject and how to handle it are?

If you cannot use your training effectively against someone bigger than you, the problem isn't plumbing... it's training.

The whole gender specific training classes seems more than a little silly to me. Our classes are mixed. And sparring pairings don't take gender or size into consideration.

 

[Buka]

If a transgender person joined any gym I ran I would impose the same rules we always had. I would have to tweak the wording, in my opinion, to be professional.

Be on time for class, every day, do not ever be late.
You will behave as a lady or gentleman at all times. (which I'm guessing would be a win win for them, no?)
You will not drop your hands when you are fighting. Ever. You have to get a mouthpiece and cup (if it applies) by the end of one month. The cup (again, if it applies) will be worn in class everyday.

You can train free for the first two weeks to see if you like it. (up to a month) Then you need gi, a black one. Once you sign up, that will be your start date. Tuition is your responsibility, don't make me chase you.

You will sign that book, right there, every time you enter the floor for a class. If you do not, you do not get credit for that class and you will be doing push ups for the entire class. Alone.

No shoes on the dojo, unless otherwise cleared with the instructor teaching. No jewellery will be worn in class. You get one reminder warning.

Politics and religion are not allowed in the dojo.

I really can't see any problems. I never had "woman" only classes, don't believe in them. The bathrooms we had were one person deals, a women's room and a men's room. Can't see any problem there. The dressing rooms might be tricky. Would have to have played that one by ear. Might've had to build another one, but no big deal, we had a lot of carpenters.

I can't see any of the other students caring too much, but that's just a guess. Heck, we even taught democrats and lawyers.

 

[Druid11]

you know you are asking for it right lol.

I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy. And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men. Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book. You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class. And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy. And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men. Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book. You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class. And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.

The issue, in theory, is that some women feel intimidated by being in a martial arts class with men. I don't know about that one way or the other. The women I trained with weren't, but I guess if any were, they wouldn't sign up for co-ed classes. I've helped others deliver women-only self-defense seminars, and attendance is high. Many more women show up for those than show up for an open self-defense seminar, but I suspect that's just because niche marketing is more effective.

 

[Steve]

The issue, in theory, is that some women feel intimidated by being in a martial arts class with men. I don't know about that one way or the other. The women I trained with weren't, but I guess if any were, they wouldn't sign up for co-ed classes. I've helped others deliver women-only self-defense seminars, and attendance is high. Many more women show up for those than show up for an open self-defense seminar, but I suspect that's just because niche marketing is more effective.

yeah, I agree. Women's only CAN be a sales gimmick, but not always.

I know that getting women into BJJ or MMA sometimes hinges on marketing just to them. It doesn't mean training exclusively in a segregated program, but having time set aside for women only classes for many reasons.

 

[Danny T]

Pronouns are very important to trans-gendered individuals and (here in the UK at least) it is considered polite to ask which pronoun a person prefers. I don't know about you but constantly repeating someone's name over and over gets very tiresome:

"Hi everyone, this is Jen and Jen is joining us for the first time. Please make Jen feel welcome as Jen is feeling rather nervous."

Pronouns can be tiresome as well:
"Hi everyone, this is Jen and she is joining us for the first time. She is rather nervous so please do your best to assure she feels welcome."

How about; "Hi everyone, joining us for the first time is Jen, who is feeling rather nervous, let's all be welcoming to help with those feelings."

 

[Druid11]

The issue, in theory, is that some women feel intimidated by being in a martial arts class with men. I don't know about that one way or the other. The women I trained with weren't, but I guess if any were, they wouldn't sign up for co-ed classes. I've helped others deliver women-only self-defense seminars, and attendance is high. Many more women show up for those than show up for an open self-defense seminar, but I suspect that's just because niche marketing is more effective.

I think self-defense seminars are often frequented by people (woman especially) that have no other interest in martial arts besides learning some basic self defense so I can see why women's only classes would be a draw in those cases. For women that are looking for longer term training, I get that some woman may be intimidate by training with men, but I think having them try the training and dispelling their fears would be better than a "woman's only" class. Women's only classes just leave a bad taste in my mouth for the reasons I already mentioned in my earlier post. And in all honesty almost all the times I've ever really been hurt by someone in class, it was another female who did it, usually because they assumed they weren't strong enough to hurt me and went too fast or too hard with a technique. For certain things it's always better to groups people of similar size and strength, but I don't think we need to group people by sex.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm a woman and I agree that's it's just a marketing ploy. And quite frankly I, as a woman, am kind of offended by woman's only classes. They're kind of patronizing and implies that woman can't/shouldn't train with men. Like I said I've only really seen them in my area for cardio-kickboxing classes, which are just martial arts lite in my book. You might as well take a Zumba or Jazzercise class. And that makes even less sense to me why they are women's only, if there's no contact.

From a males point of view in how I see women train and how I see men train. There are more women out there that feel better if other women are around. From a self-defense perspective many fathers tell their teenage daughters and college age daughter "Don't be the only woman in a group of men." He's not saying it because he doesn't think his daughter can't protect himself, he's saying it because he knows first hand of how some men think. I think many women carry this with them especially if they don't train in any type of self-defense. If a martial arts school only has men in it, then it's going to be really difficult to attack women to the school.

Many martial arts schools would love to have a large number of women who can hang tough with the guys. The other issue is that for the majority of the women there is a strength difference. Women from a young age are taught to be a "princesses" and not to be a "tomboy" This perception is multiplied every day in magazines and TV shows. When girls are reading girly magazines that talk about hair, fashion, first kisses etc. boys are reading things like sport illustrated, hunting, guns, how to get muscles. I know when I was a teen the boys would try to get muscles and be tough and the girls would try to get cute and have soft skin. All of that carries into adulthood.

In my school we have women that range from late 20's to mid 50's training with the guys doing the same exercises, getting bruises. There are almost as many women as there are men. However, we only have 1 teenage girl that trains with us. We used to have 2 but the other decided to do dancing instead of Kung Fu. It is especially difficult to get Black women into martial arts.

I think the majority of the people who do "women's only classes" just understand that the majority of women feel comfortable doing physical stuff with other women.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Heck, we even taught democrats and lawyers

 

[JowGaWolf]

Pronouns can be tiresome as well:
"Hi everyone, this is Jen and she is joining us for the first time. She is rather nervous so please do your best to assure she feels welcome."

How about; "Hi everyone, joining us for the first time is Jen, who is feeling rather nervous, let's all be welcoming to help with those feelings."

ha ha ha.. this makes me feel bad because our introductions is. Hi my name is. This is.. Smile and shake hands. Then straight to training. I'm not sure but I think we joke a little more when new people first arrive. I know when I train and there's a new person, I will sometimes open up and express externally how an exercise is kicking my but. Normally I'll hide it around existing students, but I try to show how difficult that some of the conditioning exercises are for me, and then I push through so they can see that even though it's difficult, I still try to do my best. I haven't had to do much of that lately since our new student joined who is overweight big time. But she puts in the works and can actually kick better than some of the fit students. She's the type of person that makes you feel lazy when you are watching her do her best.

 

[drop bear]

you know you are asking for it right lol.

I was going to mention that nobody any good comes from a female only class. But decided to be tactful.

 

[drop bear]

We do have a girl people mistake for a guy. Quite often we have to have a wisper in their ear.

And by wisper we mean yell across the room.

I dont think she is even doing it all that intentionally.

 

[Buka]

I know from personal experience that some (not all) of these guys believe they are ancient samurai trapped in a modern, white guy's body.

Alright, who squealed?