Traditional TKD

[terryl965]

Mike I can answer for me only, Question 2 no it never ever took seven years to get a BB, for me it is as always been the norm 4-5 years. This way you really understand the actual techs of every movement to that level.

Question 3 Self Defense for me has changed over the years, but with any good system it will change to adapt to the ever changing way of the world. One thing I see less of today in alot of TKD school when it comes to self defense is having full speed being done and having the opponet resist instead of just falling. I believ you must have some realism to really understand SD

No sportis not consider traditional TKD in any circlethat I am aware of. We teach both as you and alot of people know, some say it cannot be done but we have found a way to make it work for us and our school. We have traditional classes and sport classes we never mix them together but you can always do both with us.

 

[andyjeffries]

1)I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport.

I disagree I don't think it has to be an either/or - nor even a "geared towards". We practice a lot of the "traditional" aspects (poomsae, destruction, pre-arranged sparring) but sparring is done in the modern sport way. It depends whether you consider sport based doing purely sparring work using modern training methods or sparring in the WTF-style.

For me, we're doing the Kukkiwon style curriculum which includes traditional Taekwondo and modern sparring.

2)I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?

I agree with Terry, it never took 7 years (at least in my relatively short time in the art). I started in 1986 and got my black belt at the end of 1990. I'd say 3-5 years is normal (depending on how often you train - and I was training a LOT for the second half of that time period).

3) Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago?

We teach it fairly the same way. I personally am supplementing Taekwondo with BJJ so I have a mixed view of self-defence, but in our school Taekwondo SD is the same it always has been.

 

[StudentCarl]

1) Some say that its hard to define exactly what is Traditional TKD. I suppose everyones idea of tradition will vary, but I dont think its impossible to figure out. Or is it? I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport. Is sport considered traditional, in TKD circles?

Sport is a later evoluation. I think common usage is that traditional taekwondo is not sport and predates sport. Many schools offer both, with different classes or programs for each. I get as much as I can from both.

2) Someone said that it took 7yrs to get a BB. Out of fear of turning this into one of those other threads that've been beat 20 times over already, let me ask this...what changed and why did it change? I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?

Not sure where that number comes from, and don't think it's representative, but I don't think things necessarily changed. I bet masters do feel the increasing desire for immediate gratification in our society. I suspect some masters are influenced more than others. The real reason the time varies from master to master is probably because their curriculum varies, and a student's ability, effort, and time commitment varies. Time alone has never been the best measure of readiness for any belt, and the better masters I've met have a good bead on when a student is ready. Integrity is a factor too, I'm sure. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure there are black belts for sale out there somewhere.

3) Self defense. Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago? Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any?

In the last two years I went through the same colored belts I went through 30 years ago. IMO, much of the colored belt curriculum is about developing technique, coordination and fitness. I do think SD is taught similarly, with differences varying more due to individual master's preferences. For example, my master in the '70s emphasized one-step sparring for SD. My current master favors mixing olympic style sparring with boxing and hapkido techniques.

Regards,
Carl

 

[dortiz]

"3) Self defense. Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago? Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any? "

The biggest difference is not the art but the students. Yes, when I studied in the early 80s my group was more SD oriented. But it was for several reasons.The sport side was just begining on a large scale. So to most of us taking it, we walked in the door for one reason not even knowing of other sides. Today that has changed in that parents sign up their kids just for the sport aspect and adults now see physical fitness as a reason alone. Kids were rare, Sport was not on the adults mind and you just did not think of it as physical fitness as you do today. Given that most of the students were guys and they came in mainly to learn how to fight.
So today you have a large sport venue that just did not exist before. Today you have more large scale gyms and many places promoting Martial Arts programs as the place to go to lose wieght. Today, folks also dont think about getting in to a fight like they did back in the 70s and 80s either.
Given that, forget the schools focus..Its who is walking in the door and what they expect.
The art is generally the same and actually with much support probably improved in the technical aspects.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Sorry I've been away folks. I didn't forget about this thread.

Anyways...again, great posts all around. Thank you. A few things caught my eye, after reading over the last few pages.



2) Someone said that it took 7yrs to get a BB. Out of fear of turning this into one of those other threads that've been beat 20 times over already, let me ask this...what changed and why did it change? I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?

Yes, it took me 7 years to earn my BB, but like others have stated, that wasn't the norm even back in the 80's. I was, a "slow learner." However, IMO, what has changed is the standards, atleast in my association. It was wasn't uncommon for people to fail their test, and although the minimum time requirement to earn your BB was 3 years, you weren't judged on time put in, you were judged on your preparedness (both mental and physical). It took me 7 years because I was not there mentally; I was a kid and I talked too much and listened too little.

My point of stating that it took me 7 years to earn my BB, is that now many students of all ages expect to test and pass as soon as they have put in the minimum amount of time required to test. Somehow the focus has changed from "work hard, and earn it" to entitlement. I'm sure that some blame should be placed on the instructors when it comes to this unfortunate fact, but I wonder how much is on society today.. . When all little leaguers get a trophy for just showing up.

I also wonder how much of it has to do with the age of our Kwan Jang Nim. It seems you either get soft in your old age or contancorous, and he has gotten softer. I'm not stating this as disrespectful, just an observation. I wonder as instructors age, how focus changes. Is it easier to slack standards and focus more on income, when your physical ability has declined at 80 years old? I don't know, and I would certainly never ask. But it makes me wonder.. .

 

[MJS]

I disagree I don't think it has to be an either/or - nor even a "geared towards". We practice a lot of the "traditional" aspects (poomsae, destruction, pre-arranged sparring) but sparring is done in the modern sport way. It depends whether you consider sport based doing purely sparring work using modern training methods or sparring in the WTF-style.

Only reason why I asked that, is because that is what I wanted to focus on in this thread....the Tradtional TKD or the more hardcore side of it. As I said in my OP, it seems that there is a side of TKD that exists, but doesnt seem to be as much in the limelight as the sport side, at least IMO.

I would imagine, and I may be wrong, but if you're more 'old school' then it would seem to that you'd gear the training to that as well. So what I gather then is that you can have a mix of the 2.

 

[MJS]

Sport is a later evoluation. I think common usage is that traditional taekwondo is not sport and predates sport. Many schools offer both, with different classes or programs for each. I get as much as I can from both.

OK. So for those schools that offer both, I'm assuming that the way the classes are taught, will differ, depending on whether you're doing sport stuff or not?

Not sure where that number comes from, and don't think it's representative, but I don't think things necessarily changed. I bet masters do feel the increasing desire for immediate gratification in our society. I suspect some masters are influenced more than others. The real reason the time varies from master to master is probably because their curriculum varies, and a student's ability, effort, and time commitment varies. Time alone has never been the best measure of readiness for any belt, and the better masters I've met have a good bead on when a student is ready. Integrity is a factor too, I'm sure. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure there are black belts for sale out there somewhere.

That number came from someone on here who said that was how long it took him to reach BB.

In the last two years I went through the same colored belts I went through 30 years ago. IMO, much of the colored belt curriculum is about developing technique, coordination and fitness. I do think SD is taught similarly, with differences varying more due to individual master's preferences. For example, my master in the '70s emphasized one-step sparring for SD. My current master favors mixing olympic style sparring with boxing and hapkido techniques.

Regards,
Carl

Thanks for the reply.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Sorry I've been away folks. I didn't forget about this thread.

Anyways...again, great posts all around. Thank you. A few things caught my eye, after reading over the last few pages.

1) Some say that its hard to define exactly what is Traditional TKD. I suppose everyones idea of tradition will vary, but I dont think its impossible to figure out. Or is it? I mean, you either gear your training more towards 'old school' or you gear it to sport. Is sport considered traditional, in TKD circles?

2) Someone said that it took 7yrs to get a BB. Out of fear of turning this into one of those other threads that've been beat 20 times over already, let me ask this...what changed and why did it change? I mean, does it still take 7yrs today?

3) Self defense. Is the way SD is taught in TKD schools today, the same as it was years ago? Whether it is or isn't, what are the main differences, if any?

In answer to number 3, the SD aspect has not changed a lot over the years where I train, probably the main difference now is that more has been added to the curriculum. When our GM came out here and started teaching he had about 10 techs he would teach to use against a wrist grab, about 10 techs to use against a knife attack to the midsection and so on and so on. Years later the club has evolved to a point where they teach literally hundreds of different self defence techs for different attacks and scenarios. We also have advanced black belts who may have studied some hapkido on the side and they also throw some ideas into the mix. We are taught heaps of these techs early on but are told to find the ones that feel the most natural and fluent to YOU and work with those ones and let them evolve to a point where you put your own flavour to them. All dan gradings require students to perform a coreographed "fight" at full speed/contact against one or multiple attackers where they defend against a variety of armed and unarmed attacks to demonstrate their knowledge both mentally and physically of the self defence techs . The club has done it this way for over 30 years and has not changed so to answwer your question, nothing has changed except for the addition of techniques over the years.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Only reason why I asked that, is because that is what I wanted to focus on in this thread....the Tradtional TKD or the more hardcore side of it. As I said in my OP, it seems that there is a side of TKD that exists, but doesnt seem to be as much in the limelight as the sport side, at least IMO.

I would imagine, and I may be wrong, but if you're more 'old school' then it would seem to that you'd gear the training to that as well. So what I gather then is that you can have a mix of the 2.

The sport gets more time in the limelight because it is much more easily promoted. Sport appeals to everyone. Sport is the easiest way to promote taekwondo on an international level. Olympic inclusion goes a lot further in this regard than does simply being another karate-like fighting system.

As for old school, the idea of sport being separate from self defense but still being a part of the curriclum goes back to Gen. Choi. From what I recall, he felt that sport fostered a competitive and fighting spirit. Self defense was a separate part of the curriculum.

My only criticism of WTF sport is that it has become so specialized as a sport that it has lost any relevance to taekwondo as a martial art.

Daniel

 

[Xue Sheng]

Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth (pre-Olympic, Olympic pending) my TKD class was separated into 2 groups; those that trained for sport and those that didn’t, and you could train in both if you liked.

I tried both but not for long, I went back to the strictly SD group

The difference I saw - both worked on forms by the way

Sport was focused on kicks and punches to areas that would give you points to win a match.

SD was focused on kicks and punches to just about anywhere as well as working on close in fighting drills and take downs.

But even the sports focused group still trained the SD with us from time to time and if I am remembering correctly SD training was required to some extent.

The beginning of class we all trained the same stuff and we could train the same stuff during the entire class. However it was in the sparing that the differences were obvious. And it could be that the sports group with go spar and we would go work on SD stuff.

The SD training side the sparing looked a lot nastier and you did have more options but I have to tell you when you watch a guy that is training for competition rip the top off of a kick bag with a side kick…sport or SD I do not want him to kick me. And I am guessing that kick would be VERY effective in the street.