"Traditional" Hapkido

[FearlessFreep]

This is one thread of two that sorta fit together.

At the school I go to, the instructor teaches what he calls "Hyprid Hapkido", which seems to be mostly based in Hapkido, but incorporates a lot of kicks from Takewondo, some ground fighting from BJJ and hand strikes from boxing (I think), and others. As in my previous Taekwondo (taught by someone who also knew Hapkido and incorporated techniques from other arts as well), this makes it difficult for me to realy get a grasp on what 'Hapkido' in itself really is. About all I really know of the art itself is that it's based largely on small circle motions to redirect and counter force and as a result there is a lot of study and focus on body mechanics and pysiologoy to make the body go where you want to and do what you want to.

So I was curious, for my own sake, to know what Hapkido really is or really looks like, just in itself. Does anyone know where I could find a good reference for a 'traditional' hapkido curriculum?

 

[zDom]

Efforts to bring all hapkido under one roof early in its history failed.

You are going to find dozens of "traditional" hapkido styles and dozens of "modern" or "hybrid" styles.

For starters, I suggest reading "The History of Hapkido" by Dakin Burdick.

I consider the hapkido I study to be "traditional" as Lee H. Park (who taught my instructor) learned hapkido from the Musulkwan in Korea, established by Kwang-Wha Won in the early 1960s.

Won learned yukweonsul from Bok-Sup Suh. Bok-Sup Suh met Yong-Sul Choi on Feb. 21, 1948, and became Choi's first Korean student.

(all of the above according to Burdick, but he seems to have done his homework well.)


Our throws look very much like Yudo. Makes sense since Bok-Sup Suh was a Judo blackbelt when he met Choi. Park's first martial art was Yudo, which he studied as a child.

Our kicks are very much like Taekwondo (although my instructor says taekwondo actually borrowed most of its kicks from HKD -- something I'm sure Park told him.)

This makes sense as the Korean Musulkwan was known for its kicking. And Park was also a grandmaster in TKD, having studied at the Chang Moo Kwan, one of the first five kwans. Nam Suk Lee of the Chang Moo Kwan watched me test for my first degree black belt in TKD.

If you saw me spar you might think my stance and punching looks boxing-like. But I have trained only traditional punching, other than free sparring. I've never set foot in a boxing gym.

I've learned to sprawl and shoot and groundfight -- all from my HKD instructor.

(Remember: BJJ comes from Judo which came from Japanese Ju Jutsu.)

I would disagree on the "small circle" principle. We are taught to train with LARGE circles at the Moo Sul Kwan as movements get smaller under stress. Same reason we train our kicks with large motions.

Body mechanics and physiology? Yep. That's definately part of it.

Hope this helps in your search to learn more about what hapkido "is."

 

[matt.m]

You took the words out of my mouth...However I was talking with GM Hildebrand and he said that according to GGM Park back when he 1st came from Korea that Won-Kwang Wha learned from Choi.

Not taking away from anything or effort for effort sake that is just what GM Hildebrand said to me.

 

[American HKD]

Efforts to bring all hapkido under one roof early in its history failed.

You are going to find dozens of "traditional" hapkido styles and dozens of "modern" or "hybrid" styles.

For starters, I suggest reading "The History of Hapkido" by Dakin Burdick.

I consider the hapkido I study to be "traditional" as Lee H. Park (who taught my instructor) learned hapkido from the Musulkwan in Korea, established by Kwang-Wha Won in the early 1960s.

Won learned yukweonsul from Bok-Sup Suh. Bok-Sup Suh met Yong-Sul Choi on Feb. 21, 1948, and became Choi's first Korean student.

(all of the above according to Burdick, but he seems to have done his homework well.)


Our throws look very much like Yudo. Makes sense since Bok-Sup Suh was a Judo blackbelt when he met Choi. Park's first martial art was Yudo, which he studied as a child.

Our kicks are very much like Taekwondo (although my instructor says taekwondo actually borrowed most of its kicks from HKD -- something I'm sure Park told him.)

This makes sense as the Korean Musulkwan was known for its kicking. And Park was also a grandmaster in TKD, having studied at the Chang Moo Kwan, one of the first five kwans. Nam Suk Lee of the Chang Moo Kwan watched me test for my first degree black belt in TKD.

If you saw me spar you might think my stance and punching looks boxing-like. But I have trained only traditional punching, other than free sparring. I've never set foot in a boxing gym.

I've learned to sprawl and shoot and groundfight -- all from my HKD instructor.

(Remember: BJJ comes from Judo which came from Japanese Ju Jutsu.)

I would disagree on the "small circle" principle. We are taught to train with LARGE circles at the Moo Sul Kwan as movements get smaller under stress. Same reason we train our kicks with large motions.

Body mechanics and physiology? Yep. That's definately part of it.

Hope this helps in your search to learn more about what hapkido "is."

Greetings,

Ji Han Jae teaches mainly small circles from the get go, and the HKD throws come from Choi's "yawara" and are combined with locks and off balances that quite a bit different from Judo/Yudo.

Suh did not teach Choi Yudo and there after Choi taught Yudo style to Ji who then taught Kwang-Wha Won. Choi was known to strictly stick to his Yawara system.

Yawara, Jujutsu, or Aiki-Jutsu and contains the roots throws of Judo so that's why they're similarities. It's also possible that later some HKD Kwans (maybe yours???) incorporated some Yudo techniques but these are not found in Sin Moo HKD for example.

We would only use large circles for demos or to illustrate the concepts!

 

[zDom]

Suh did not teach Choi Yudo and there after Choi taught Yudo style to Ji who then taught Kwang-Wha Won. Choi was known to strictly stick to his Yawara system.

I don't doubt that Choi already had knowledge of Judo-type throws, and in no way meant to imply that Choi learned any throwing from Suh.

As for Ji teaching Won, are you SURE? I have a world of respect for you, Stuart, but where are you getting this information regarding Ji teaching Won?

Burdick writes that Won learned from Suh. GM Hildebrand of St. Louis, one of the first (if not the first) of GM Lee H. Park's first American students, says that Won learned directly from Choi. These could both be true: Won could have been learning from both Suh and Choi.

But I have never heard of Won being taught by Ji, although I guess it could also be true.

 

[matt.m]

Stuart, I would like to clarify what Scott meant and where you might be confused. GGM Park, GM Hildebrand and my dad has and will always teach large circle for the reasons Scott said. However, I will put it into context of large circle = full circle. When I think of large circle I think Aikido style, not Hapkido.

Stuart, you may be thinking of over exaggerated circles like Aikido is known for, this is not at all the case. The point of Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido is full circle so to get complete rotation and not cut the technique off... this is not good by the way, which is what happens if you cut the circle or rotation off.

I am not trying to start an argument at all, however I ask the question of: If Ji Han Jae taught Won-Kwang Wha then how in the world did Ji Han Jae and Won-Kwang Wha begin there perspective kwans; Sin Moo and MuSul at roughly the same time?

 

[American HKD]

Stuart, I would like to clarify what Scott meant and where you might be confused. GGM Park, GM Hildebrand and my dad has and will always teach large circle for the reasons Scott said. However, I will put it into context of large circle = full circle. When I think of large circle I think Aikido style, not Hapkido.

Stuart, you may be thinking of over exaggerated circles like Aikido is known for, this is not at all the case. The point of Moo Sul Kwan Hapkido is full circle so to get complete rotation and not cut the technique off... this is not good by the way, which is what happens if you cut the circle or rotation off.

Yes I understand and that's a good clarification

I am not trying to start an argument at all, however I ask the question of: If Ji Han Jae taught Won-Kwang Wha then how in the world did Ji Han Jae and Won-Kwang Wha begin there perspective kwans; Sin Moo and MuSul at roughly the same time?

I will double check my facts?

Thanks

 

[matt.m]

Take a look at this guys. I absolutely love history and tradition. Without history and tradition you have nothing to base off of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hapkido#Won_Kwang-Wha

The worst thing is not knowing what to base information off of.

 

[DerekHKD]

Thanks for posting the link Matt! It's great to see some info on GGM Park's hapkido teacher. I didn't really know anything about Won Kwang-Wha.

It was also very nice to read that Won Kwang-Wha taught practical self defense and he believed strength was very important. It is so great that MSK still teaches Hapkido this way.