Tracy's Kenpo and Wing Chun

Discussion in 'Tracy's Kenpo' started by Spartan, Jun 21, 2007.

  1. Spartan

    Spartan Green Belt

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    How well could you incorporate wing chun into your Tracy's kenpo repetoire?

    With that question, do you think it would be easier to flow from a kenpo background into wing chun training, or visa versa?

    Being totally hypothetical, how do you think a very skilled kenpo practitioner would stack up next to a very skilled wing chun practitioner?


    Nothing but respect,
    Spartan
     
  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    I had a background in Tracy kenpo, among other things, when I trained Wing Chun. I think the two complement each other well. They approach things differently, but a lot of the Tracy techs seem to work well in the context of chi sau, and the experience with all the Tracy techs gives an advantage in interpreting movement and figuring out how to make things work.

    I don't like to compare how well they would compete against each other, as I am a firm believer that it is the practitioner, not the art, that matters.
     
  3. Spartan

    Spartan Green Belt

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    This is just my opinion, but overall I think Tracy's kenpo is a much more versatile style than wing chun.

    One thing I must ask about, however, is Tracy's close range attacks/defenses. Does it have the same kind of moves that would keep an individual safe while blocking out the moves of their opponent?
     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    I think it really is what you make of it. For one person, your statement may hold true but for another person it may not.

    Tracy's curriculum, and many of the different kenpo methods that trace back to William Chow or James Mitose, tend to have a lot of specific methods for dealing with attacks. This gives a lot of material to work with and for many people it works very well.

    Wing Chun, and many of the traditional Chinese arts are a bit more vague in their approach to the material. They often don't use the same kinds of specific methods that kenpo does, instead the material is contained within the forms. After you learn the forms, you must get creative with them and figure out how the material can be applied. For many people this approach also works very well.

    well, I might ask for a little clarity in what you are asking. If you mean close range things like someone wants to grab ahold of you, or grab you with one hand and punch you in the face with the other, yes, we have good methods to deal with those. If you are referring to something else, please clarify.
     
  5. Spartan

    Spartan Green Belt

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    To me, it's seems that wing chun flourishes at the close-quarters, in-fighting. While it doesn't seem that the wing chun practitioner likes to move out of this range, they seem very comfortable/ competant functioning in this range.

    Is the Tracy system as capable in this range? It seems like the natural reaction of a Tracy's practitioners in this situation, after blocking/ countering this close-up attack, would be to move to a different range. Does Tracy's have the series of traps like wing chun to stay at this distance? Mayne this is just a strength of wing chun?

    Only Respect,
    Spartan
     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    well yes, this is sort of wing chun's specialty, but I really believe that a competent wing chun person can adjust to most any range necessary, so long as they are close enough to actually engage. In my experience, wing chun doesn't focus as much on kicking, and perhaps a strong kicker could keep a wing chun guy at bay if he uses a lot of long range kicks. But wing chun does use kicks as well, and I think a wing chunner who develops his kicks could match this. But it wouldn't make sense to just match and trade kick for kick. Looking for a way to get past the kicks and deliver something decisive is more productive, and I know some wing chunners who are scary good and can certainly handle themselves against just about anyone.

    Tracys does have this, it's just approached differently. We have a lot of methods that include blocking and counterstriking, but also a lot of joint locking and joint manipulating and joint destroying techniques, sort of a stand-up jujitsu, if you will. Tracys can fight at the kicking range, punching range, and closer joint locking range. We also have methods for dealing with finding yourself on the ground. We don't try to out-grapple a grappler. That's suicide, and it's not good self defense. Trying to stick around to win the submission is the stuff of competition. Instead, we work to break free and get up and escape, or at least carry the fight from our feet, as our focus is on self defense, not winning the submission.
     
  7. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

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    In my opinion the Wing Chun training I did augmented and actually helped the lines in my Kenpo get much better and much faster. I did write about this in one of my "XXX"s back in the 80's.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  8. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

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    I didn't know it where it came from until recently, but I was taught a set that wasn't in the EPAK cirriculum. I identified it as a variation of sil lum dao (the "first" wing chun set/form) by happening upon Wing Chun guys on YouTube.
     
  9. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

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    Yep,
    "finger set",
    of which a moving variation is taught in the Ed Parker Kenpo I learned back in the 70's-80's.

    I was NOT referencing that "set" when I talked about Wing chung helping.

    I was referencing elbow placement, covers, traps, chi sao, circles on the ends of straight lines, center line concepts, etc.

    That introductory "set" leaves out all the good stuff.

    Thank you.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    mmm....no, Sil Nim Tao is not Finger Set as found in kenpo. They are very very different, sil nim tao is the first foundation set in wing chun.
     
  11. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

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    Really?
    Am I that old?
    It was very isomorphic in the hand movements I learned from Tim Byrn back in the 80's. But if you are referencing the same sequence, you are right, they are different.
    My almost 30 year old memory of one versus the other picked out the similarities.
    My bad.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Grandmaster

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    I guess now that I think about it I can see some commonalities between them. But they should not be confused one from the other. They are definitely different, but like i mentioned in some earlier posts in this thread, I think wing chun blends well with kenpo.
     
  13. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

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    So do I.

    And I believe it even more than blends, but enhances the protectives skills and speed skills of those doing kenpo.

    Look at history, when Ed Parker lost almost all his black belts to that young upstart, Bruce Lee.(that was a joke BL lovers & haters)

    Even historical evidence validates that premise.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  14. Ray

    Ray Master Black Belt

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    The variation of Sil Lim Tao I learned was taught to me as "grab set" back in the 1980's. It was only this year that I was looking at kung fu forms on youtube and discovered the roots of it. I've not seen it in other kenpo schools under any name.
     
  15. suicide

    suicide Black Belt

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    to me anything works well with kenpo , i took judo for a year and a half and now every technique i wanna finish with osoto gari or seoi nage as well as the boxing i took¨: i could do a boxing combo and go into judo from there and so on ' to me kenpo goes well with anything it also depends what your life consist of :angel:
     

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