Total Aikido The Master Course, by Gozo Shioda

[Jason Striker II]

For three of the years I lived in Japan, I trained in Aikido, making Ikkyu (Brown belt). I read a number of Aikido books, but never really found any of them helpful, except Total Aikido The Master Course, by Gozo Shioda. I just wanted to get any other practitioners' thoughts on this book.

 

[oaktree]

I think its an OK book. I liked this is Aikido by koichi tohei
I thought the weapon defense like against guns was something
I didn't see address in a lot of books. Also the pictures
were big unlike other Aikido books that have small
Hard to see pictures.

 

[Chris Li]

For three of the years I lived in Japan, I trained in Aikido, making Ikkyu (Brown belt). I read a number of Aikido books, but never really found any of them helpful, except Total Aikido The Master Course, by Gozo Shioda. I just wanted to get any other practitioners' thoughts on this book.

Technically, it's great - but the technical section is often quite specific to Yoshinkan Aikido. Other folks may or may not find it useful.

Personally, technique books usually make me sleepy...

Best,

Chris

 

[K-man]

Technically, it's great - but the technical section is often quite specific to Yoshinkan Aikido. Other folks may or may not find it useful.

Personally, technique books usually make me sleepy...

Best,

Chris

Tend to agree with both comments. I usually pick up a book at bedtime and normally don't get far.

And, Yoshinkan is to my mind a much more physical style of aikido compared with Aikikai. I read the books to get a feeling of where these pioneers come from but in terms of learning techniques, nothing is going to replace a top instructor. :asian:

 

[Jenna]

Tend to agree with both comments. I usually pick up a book at bedtime and normally don't get far.

And, Yoshinkan is to my mind a much more physical style of aikido compared with Aikikai. I read the books to get a feeling of where these pioneers come from but in terms of learning techniques, nothing is going to replace a top instructor. :asian:

Can I ask how do you mean physical style?

I find Shioda immensely entertaining

and his style immensely efficient. I think some practitioners -imo- have the flow pared down below the minimum that would designate maximum efficiency and the practice of Yoshinkan becomes stiff.. that is just my experience I do not mean to tar all with one brush It is not for no reason that the police in some prefectures utilise Yoshinkan. It is street ready and does not need to prove itself I think the book is well written.. As I remember some of the terms were not compatible between styles.

I think books can be a useful tuner-upper or new-perspective if you are practicing the style, though reading about another style as you say is like reading about how to play trumpet when you have no inclination to play the instrument

 

[K-man]

Can I ask how do you mean physical ?

Yoshinkan relies on using speed, strength and timing. This video shows the rigidity I have seen in Yoshinkan practitioners. If you look at the extension of the fingers for example. They are stuck out stiffly with the hand forcibly extended. You can't do that without tension. The tension in the hand in turn locks up the whole body. The stance is also very deep which makes movement difficult. Then, if you look at the movement of the body, it moves together. There is no broken timing. What this means in practice is, a stronger person can stop the technique every time if they don't comply.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...-9mZBA&usg=AFQjCNHaPUwgZHWZijYC5Gi6v05daMsHUg

The Aikikai style which developed post war is much softer, has much less tension and incorporates broken timing. It can still be stopped with strength but by this time aikido was blending more with the attacker rather than clashing.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...wemnAg&usg=AFQjCNHq3jaNOO_97d1BLoW2JTF4U7b1WA

Unfortunately the Aikikai vid also shows a great reliance on compliance but is much more relaxed. Both styles to be effective must utilise atemi.

I have trawled YouTube to find a clip demonstrating Ki but with little luck.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...yMD3Aw&usg=AFQjCNFFO_iVh6iKqxkJfTk5dx2DpEuccw

This shows a guy who shows that he can use Ki in demonstration. I tried to find a video of randori with Ki but then there is no evidence of Ki in any of the randori I found that claimed to use ki. Uke is complying every time and doing a smooth roll and getting back up immediately like you expect with a good demo of ukemi. You just can't do that when Ki is used. :asian:

 

[Jenna]

Yoshinkan relies on using speed, strength and timing. This video shows the rigidity I have seen in Yoshinkan practitioners. If you look at the extension of the fingers for example. They are stuck out stiffly with the hand forcibly extended. You can't do that without tension. The tension in the hand in turn locks up the whole body. The stance is also very deep which makes movement difficult. Then, if you look at the movement of the body, it moves together. There is no broken timing. What this means in practice is, a stronger person can stop the technique every time if they don't comply.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...-9mZBA&usg=AFQjCNHaPUwgZHWZijYC5Gi6v05daMsHUg

The Aikikai style which developed post war is much softer, has much less tension and incorporates broken timing. It can still be stopped with strength but by this time aikido was blending more with the attacker rather than clashing.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...wemnAg&usg=AFQjCNHq3jaNOO_97d1BLoW2JTF4U7b1WA

Unfortunately the Aikikai vid also shows a great reliance on compliance but is much more relaxed. Both styles to be effective must utilise atemi.

I have trawled YouTube to find a clip demonstrating Ki but with little luck.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...yMD3Aw&usg=AFQjCNFFO_iVh6iKqxkJfTk5dx2DpEuccw

This shows a guy who shows that he can use Ki in demonstration. I tried to find a video of randori with Ki but then there is no evidence of Ki in any of the randori I found that claimed to use ki. Uke is complying every time and doing a smooth roll and getting back up immediately like you expect with a good demo of ukemi. You just can't do that when Ki is used. :asian:

This is a super post, thank you Russ I understand your points, I am just wondering how you are seeing Yoshinkan as more physical? To me it is a style (I am Aikikai ) that is pared down to physical minimum. As I had said, I perceive Yoshinkan as having forgone some of the fluidity that I am happier with in favour of efficiency and which is fine only I had noticed that some practitioners were almost staccato to use the musical term. Anyway, that is just personal perspective, though to me because of that, it is a *less* physical expression of Aiki than perhaps Aikikai? I do not know.. what do you think?

As to fingers, I think extension of fingers is normal practice among most Aikidoka yes? Often it is used index-finger only, in order to project ki direction and to visualise where uke will be moved

Regarding compliance you know too well that compliance is necessary not for prettying it up and but to avoid injury to yourself as uke. However, I think the other side that outsiders miss when watching videos that are apparently excessively compliant is that compliance is good Aikido because perfect ukemi will save you if better nage has taken your centre Conversely, resistance is not good Aikido. There is nowhere this is taught Therefore, if ki is properly projected through uke then you might expect him to not to be up immediately, indeed yes, the caveat being however that if uke has perfected his ukemi and his ukemi ability versus your ki projection have parity then the energy that you project through him is converted through his movements and sound energy I think that is physics.

I think that is where outsiders to Aikido make the mistake of thinking it is all about nage though you know that most of your training is as uke. I believe this is for a simple reason though I am happy to be wrong . We espouse a certain value set (at least in Aikikai) that we are not the aggressor. Therefore we begin any physical altercation as uke and it is for us not only to redirect the energies of our assailant and but to redirect the dynamic of the confrontation that we ourselves become nage / tori. Anyway, I am sorry for yabbering I do not mean to Your points are well made, thank you. I very much enjoyed the clips, they are added to the vault Wishes, Jxo

 

[K-man]

This is a super post, thank you Russ I understand your points, I am just wondering how you are seeing Yoshinkan as more physical? To me it is a style (I am Aikikai ) that is pared down to physical minimum. As I had said, I perceive Yoshinkan as having forgone some of the fluidity that I am happier with in favour of efficiency and which is fine only I had noticed that some practitioners were almost staccato to use the musical term. Anyway, that is just personal perspective, though to me because of that, it is a *less* physical expression of Aiki than perhaps Aikikai? I do not know.. what do you think?

This is a video of a guy called Joe Thambu here in Australia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaOXe_UsE4o

He is the top Yoshinkan guy in these parts. He is small but fast and technically he is very good. Even so, his aikido from my perspective is 'hard' and physical. It looks softer And more fluid than it is because he is using good receivers. His students use a lot of strength.
Yoshinkan is the style developed by Gozo Shioda and is heavily influenced by Daito Ryu. BTW, Joe Thambu's uncle and teacher was a direct student of Gozo Shioda.

As to fingers, I think extension of fingers is normal practice among most Aikidoka yes? Often it is used index-finger only, in order to project ki direction and to visualise where uke will be moved

I suppose people are all told different things about why the fingers are extended. An easy check of what I am saying is get your training partner to have a totally relaxed wrist while you are holding it. As long as there is no tension in the arm, he/she will be able to move the arm about with no effort. Then ask them to spread the fingers nd repeat the exercise. You will pick up the slightest movement and stop it every time. Ki and tension just do not mix. Ki is projected from the mind to move someone. The hand can lead but not if there is tension. Once again, any sign of tension and the technique will fail against strength.

Here is a comparison of Tai No Henko. First clip is Yoshinkan. Just look at the fingers and the tension.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&r...-4GjDQ&usg=AFQjCNGwrI7EkfSqIDBiQvMggOkLKLnjkg

Second clip is much like we do. No tension in the hand and with extension from the centre.

Regarding compliance you know too well that compliance is necessary not for prettying it up and but to avoid injury to yourself as uke.

In theory you are right. However, you will only be injured if someone can actually apply the technique. From experience, without atemi, that just doesn't happen all that often. I have only found one person that can do that to me. That is why he is my teacher. :ultracool Sure, I take ukemi, but only to help my partner learn the technique. If my partner is being 'Bolshi' then stiff cheese. I won't move. If you watch vids of demos,most of the time uke is launching into the throw or roll before the technique is even applied.


However, I think the other side that outsiders miss when watching videos that are apparently excessively compliant is that compliance is good Aikido because perfect ukemi will save you if better nage has taken your centre

Compliance is good up to a point. Say someone is putting on kote gaeshi. I'll go with it until I can reverse it. Because I know very few people can make it work, I'm never going to throw myself over to try to escape. I'll use the next clip as an example. The way this is being demonstrated is the way it works with Ki. Uke will fall straight to the ground. There is no way you can flip out of it. That's the point where uke is launching himself.

http://www.ehow.com/video_4940153_aikido-kotegaeshi-wrist-grab-defense.html

Conversely, resistance is not good Aikido. There is nowhere this is taught

You see. That is where we differ. If you don't have resistance in your training you will never know if it is really working or if uke is just taking a dive. That is why we train against total resistance. We train compliantly as well but we always let our partner know if it is working or not. As you rightly say, resistance is not taught. Why? Because if it was taught, most people would be discouraged and give up aikido. Once you start training with total resistance you know your technique works, and you don't hurt your partner training this way.

Therefore, if ki is properly projected through uke then you might expect him to not to be up immediately, indeed yes, the caveat being however that if uke has perfected his ukemi and his ukemi ability versus your ki projection have parity then the energy that you project through him is converted through his movements and sound energy I think that is physics.

As I have said before. I don't pretend to understand Ki. I only know what I feel and how I react. If you are taken down by Ki you own energy is disrupted. You feel drained and physically can't get back up quickly. If you are hit with kokyu the effect is magnified tenfold. You feel like you've been hit by a truck.

I think that is where outsiders to Aikido make the mistake of thinking it is all about nage though you know that most of your training is as uke.

Again, this is where our training differs. For me that's a good thing 'cos I'm to old to be jumping up and down all the time. Mostly I only go down if someone puts me down. But, having said that, a lot of the training is as uke, but, for me, that means learning how to resist the technique. Most times I don't resist with strength.

I believe this is for a simple reason though I am happy to be wrong . We espouse a certain value set (at least in Aikikai) that we are not the aggressor. Therefore we begin any physical altercation as uke and it is for us not only to redirect the energies of our assailant and but to redirect the dynamic of the confrontation that we ourselves become nage / tori.

Doesn't always have to be. If you enter (with irimi) leading with the back of the arm as if to strike, normally your partner (or attacker) will raise an arm to defend. That is what I call a 'predetermined response'. (We use it in karate all the time.) That creates the opportunity to take the arm or wrist and apply your lock or takedown.


Anyway, I am sorry for yabbering I do not mean to Your points are well made, thank you. I very much enjoyed the clips, they are added to the vault Wishes, Jxo

Thank you for making me think! Enjoy the clips. :asian:

 

[Jenna]

Thank you for making me think! Enjoy the clips. :asian:

Yes! I did like those clips.. send more please!! And thank you for your courteous reply my friend

Regarding resistance, I understand what you are saying Russ, only I would see it a little differently and I hope that is ok For me, to present resistance as uke in order to help my partner is one thing -Ihave no problem with that- however, to present resistance in order to "make" them move me or GTFO then I am not improving my Aikido. By comparison, in a real outside, off-mat situation, how would you conduct yourself in terms of the resistance you offer an attacker?

Perhaps we just see things differently. As long as your outcome works for you then it is all good my friend

Regarding extension of finger(s), yes, you are correct, extension of fingers will remove the floppiness of complete relaxation from the arm however for me, this is where the balance of tension will generate a better transmission of ki. For me ki does not operate from hara, that where propulsion comes from. For me, ki is a kind of turbocharging of the energy I am receiving from uke. In matters of ki I regard myself not as a generator of energy and but as a conductor. The balance of absorption and transmission is necessary in order to properly transmit ki. I hate trying to put this in words.. it never works.. Anyway, extension of fingers to me it is like when you jump off a wall.. To correctly manage the energies involved, you must keep a balance of tension in your legs. Too much and impact will be transmitted through your skeletal structure. Conversely with zero tension in your legs you will not slow the rate of decrease in your momentum and will be a pile on the ground. There must be a fine balance of tension. So that tension at the forearm is very necessary. In my opinion

And I know what you mean about only going down when you are PUT down. That also makes sense. Again, my view would be slightly different (except in the situation where I would have been trying to properly show a technique to a student). In all other cases, I offer no resistance. In so doing, I never present myself a viable target to uke. As you say, there are many ways to practice your Aiki. I think that is a good thing

I appreciate your thoughts and your views Russ even if we might differ in approaches . I am grateful for the opportunity to have an Aikido convo Wishes.

 

[K-man]

To Brian and Jenna. My apologies for posting in the wrong thread. Don't know how it happened but I have deleted this post and reposted on "Going to a new dojo", thread.