TKD's Future

[Moo D]

MichiganTKD,

The fact that your GM wore a different dobok, does that not concern you regarding the direction of TKD. I only say this because the philosophy behind the white dobok and the lapel trim are the traditional aspects of the art. The sport side has dispensed with these traditions, much like karate and sport karate, where flashy colours and even balck doboks have been worn.

I am not saying it is wrong to change the dobok or to progress, however with TKD in the state it is at present, do you think that the traditions of the MA TKD will be lost in this current shake up and with a lot of the founders of the different kwans now gone???

 

[MichiganTKD]

It could be that I am reading too much into it and he wore the uniform simply because he liked the style. Now, if he had shown up wearing a white jacket/black pants combo, or a black uniform with red stripes, THAT would have surprised and disappointed me.
To a certain extent, yes it does concern me. Previously, with traditional TKD we knew what the guidelines were and what was expected of us. We knew proper etiquette, proper dress, proper technique etc. With TKD becoming factionalized, I am concerned that black belts and Instructors who are not qualified will start making changes they are not in a position to make. On the other hand, it's not like this has not been going already. America has had this problem for years. There are many web sites featuring unqualified "Instructors" with half-baked credentials dressed like Power Rangers!
I am just concerned it will become systemic. Much like a school where there is an administrative breakdown-the teachers will start doing what they want with no parameters for guidance regardless of how much experience they have.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear MichiganTKD:

Better get used to it, friend, for it surely is the shape of things to come. I am not just speaking of TKD, either.

Fancy uniforms, flashy hyung, exotic weapons and intermixed curriculum are all becoming the signs of the times across the Korean martial arts as folks splinter off from larger groups to form their own unique organizations with their own unique character. Used to be people were content to simply keep a single uniform and develop their own unique patch. Then they started printing their school names on the backs of their uniforms like Bowling shirts have sponsors. Now, we are up to clever dress like spandex and running suits all the way up to Japanese hakamas. Its a lot like the modern tattoos. I t has nothing to do with traditional practices and everything to do with making a physical statement about what you want people to think about you.

For myself I used to advocate for simple heavy white uniforms for gueps, all black for dan ranks and an all black han bok for weapons work. Apparently this is just not eye-catching enough. So I say screw 'em. Nobody decreed that I am suppose to save KMA leadership from making fools out of themselves. Of course, that also means that I don't have to get dolled-up in a satin uniform of outlandish color like a NY pimp either. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Moo D]

Bruce,

You are right, my friend, unfortunately the philosophy of the Dobok and the significance of the white colour is being lost due to the commercialism that is throughout all MA's.

The use of flashy uniform detracts from the philosophy of TKD and the tradition aspects, although it does not mean that it detracts from the MA itself, as we all know, the colour of your belt or uniform does not maketh the Martial artist. However, the past needs to be embraced, and part of MA is held in the traditions and philosophies that come from the past.

I hope that TKD finds it's own path before it is too late and becomes another combat sport, where winning is all that matters!!

Regards,

 

[Disco]

Well, upon further reflection and review of the internet, I'm going to recant much of my prior post. That which stated that TKD would come back to it's roots. NAH!, ain't gonna happen..............

On just one TKD web site, there were over 120 different organizations listed. One in particular caught my attention. The USTW (United States TKD Won). The headline print when entering the site is that they want to return TKD as a Martial Art. But right after that, in bigger color print, is the notification for their 2004 National competition. I have seen several other organizations dangle that lets return to real martial arts/self defense carrot out there, only to list their competition side further down the page. TKD has been victimized by greed thru a sports mentality agenda and by the very people that introduced us to it in the first place. Greed dosen't just go away, it just changes venues. I have seen, to a small degree, some people who wish to remove themselves from the mantle of TKD looking to align / switch over to TSD. That unto itself is a case for another thread, so I'll just leave it as a statement. Back to TKD and it's future.......... I don't see any new future for TKD. It will happily skip along (all the way to the bank), until such time as people get bored with not learning anything really worth while and get really tired of paying thru the nose for a medal or trophy. But knowing our society (I want it now and I want it easy), that won't be happining very soon. :mst:

 

[Fortis]

Interesting stuff all. I suppose Tae Kwon Do has been a victim of its own success (whether as a Martial Art or "sport"). Yes, it sounds like a lot of it has to do with factionalized leadership and such but even that comes from something spreading so quickly that a lot of different people end up being high in the pecking order. I think you'll hear much of the same conversations from other the "new" martial arts once they have been around for awhile and their bureaucracy becomes as extensive as Tae Kwon Do's.

 

[Moo D]

I agree with all the sentiments, Unfortunately TKD has been a victim of Korean Government. Post WW2, and the withdrawal of the Japanese occupying force, the Koreans have been preoccupied by re-instating their national identity. I feel that this headlong thrust for international recognition, allowed TKD to be used as a vehicle for this. Most of the Very Sneior Masters in TKD never envisaged that their art would be used as a vehicle for International recognition of Korean culture and history.

The sad thing for TKD is that the best way for recognition would be on the greatest stage the world has to offer, the Olympics. Therefore TKD would have to qualify as a sport. Part of the Remit of the IOC is that any sport must be accessed by ALL member nations. Therefore, the rapid spread of TKD as a sport across the world so quickly (in around 25 years) allowed the inclusion in the 1988 Seoul Olympics.

The only loser is TKD as a martial art, hence the 'sport' has made many people throughout the world very rich, but lost the main ingredient, the 'do'.

I hope that TKD finds a path that will allow it to find it's 'way' once again.

Regards,

 

[glad2bhere]

Hmmmm, I'm not so sure.

When I think of the Olympics I think of what happened to Judo with its loss of emphasis on groundwork and chokes. For me, what really needed to happen was for the art to follow the line of Okinawan Karate.

In that case, the To-De indigenous to the islands was mixed with Chinese Boxing from the Southern traditions. The result was Okinawa-te, a well-respected and effective fighting art. But nobody ran around trying open a string of McDojo schools, or started having gala events. The growth of the art was slow, methodical and detail oriented. The result was a stunning art but it took time and investment of self for that result. For the Koreans the same thing could have happened with indigenous Taek Kyon mixing with imported Karate or ju-jutsu. However, most people simply didn't want to invest that sort of effort. The goal needed to be "getting better" and instead it became accruing the trappings of "being better" (trophies, certs, rank, etc. --- not the same thing). Now its to the point that people don't want to test, they don't want to study traditional weapons, they want to develop a client base and generate revenues. If you look back into Korean history none of this was a part of learning Korean martial arts except until most recently (last 3 decades or so). FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Fortis]

When you say "traditional weapons," which do you mean? ^^^^

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Fortis:

Not sure if you are refering to my comment or not, but when I say "traditional Korean weapons" I am refering to those 18 weapons found in the MYTBTJI with the inclusion of the dan bong, cane and soh bong. These latter modern additions are generally "civilian" rather than martial weapons and are often ascribed to Japanese influences but have been used with the Hapkido arts for so long they are usually part of the curriculum for most modern Hapkido schools. On the other hand the Hyup do and other polearms, Ssang Soo Do and other uncommon sword designs and the Kwon Bup as represented in its form in the MYTBTJ are rarely if ever still practiced, so being traditional in one sense can also suggest "extinct" in another, yes? :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

Agree with Olympic Tae Kwon Do gaining prominence due to the Nation of Korea wanting to assert itself in the world. At the time, perhaps it was necessary, since it was felt that only by presenting a world-ranked martial art would other nations take Korea seriously. However, that is no longer necessarily true.
It could even be argued that by joining the Korean Sports Association in the early 60's, the KTA was setting the stage for Olympic recognition by shifting emphasis from a martial art to a sport. This is the reason why Hwang Kee's Tang Soo Do voluntarily never joined the Tae Kwon Do movement.
What I hope happens is that Tae Kwon Do, or whatever it becomes, retains tournament competition as an aspect of training. Remember, competition was a part of subak training going back hundreds of years, so it is not a recent phenomenon.
However, I also hope that TKD de-emphasizes competition as the primary activity and goes back to asserting itself as a program of self improvement and self defense. Because by emphasizing competition to the exclusion of all else, it not only sacrifices many of the techniques that make it effective, it excludes significant segments of the population that might practice if it weren't so tournament oriented. As it stands now, Tae Kwon Do is often referred to as a "children's martial art" due to the large numbers of kids who practice it hoping to become tournament champions down the road.
I don't see a problem with children practicing, as long as it is under the context of making their bodies and minds strong for later in life.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....However, I also hope that TKD de-emphasizes competition as the primary
activity and goes back to asserting itself as a program of self improvement
and self defense. Because by emphasizing competition to the exclusion of all
else, it not only sacrifices many of the techniques that make it effective,
it excludes significant segments of the population that might practice if it
weren't so tournament oriented. As it stands now, Tae Kwon Do is often
referred to as a "children's martial art" due to the large numbers of kids
who practice it hoping to become tournament champions down the road....."

Bingo--- right on the money!!!!

If I thought for one minute that involvement in the Olympics would not confound the practice of TKD as a developing combative art it would get my whole-hearted support (for whatever THATS worth). What I am seeing is instead of building the art, the Olympic cloud seems to divide the TKD community into competitors on one side and combatants on the other.
Shotokan as a martial art has divisions of its own along philosophical lines with the senior Funakoshi espousing his art as a kind of physical culture while his son, in partnership with Nakayama and later Nishiyama want more emphasis on combat. Even later generations found themselves foregoing their continuing Shotokan training to head back to Okinawa for their combat roots. This was part of the Shudokan influence and I am surprised that with as many Korean masters who can share this heritage there was not more emphasis on combat and S-D in TKD as there might have been. Now it seems to be left up to later generations to likewise bolster combant aspects by integrating, say Hapkido material, in with their TKD curriculum. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Fortis]

Dear Fortis:

Not sure if you are refering to my comment or not, but when I say "traditional Korean weapons" I am refering to those 18 weapons found in the MYTBTJI with the inclusion of the dan bong, cane and soh bong. These latter modern additions are generally "civilian" rather than martial weapons and are often ascribed to Japanese influences but have been used with the Hapkido arts for so long they are usually part of the curriculum for most modern Hapkido schools. On the other hand the Hyup do and other polearms, Ssang Soo Do and other uncommon sword designs and the Kwon Bup as represented in its form in the MYTBTJ are rarely if ever still practiced, so being traditional in one sense can also suggest "extinct" in another, yes? :asian:

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Yep, I was asking you Bruce. Thanks for the lesson :supcool: I didn't realize that Tae Kwon Do had traditional weapons. Or are these just weapons that have been used in Korean Martial Arts whether TKD or not?

 

[glad2bhere]

--er -- "Yes".

The weapons I have mentioned have been used, or at least incorporated into the skill set of the Korean military since the the first version of the MYTBTJ entitled the MU YE JE BO ("Martial Arts Illustrations") and written by Han Kyo and published during the reign of King Sun-jo (1567-1608). That first manual covered only 6 weapons (long stick, "wolf-tail" spear, shield art, long spear, triple-tip spear and Long sword). I mention this only because if anyone is ever interested in the origins of Korean Martial Science cum martial arts I submitt respectfully that they take a long slow look at the reign of this king. In the MYTBTJ (pg 22) four entries state that not only did this guy teach martial science at the Royal Military Academy, but he also established the Offices of Guards, Office of Royal Defense and the Office of Martial Arts. As far as the rest of the weapons or variant takes on particular weapons the MYTBTJ was actually the product a a series of editions or versions. However, the ultimate result, the MYTBTJ itself is a result of repeated surveys of military works extending all the way back to 1450 when King Munjong ordered the publication of the "Comprehensive Military Chronical of the Eastern Kingdom."

The other answer - "yes" -- speaks to the TKD people using these traditional weapons and there the record is a bit more spotty. The short stick and cane are popular as they are easily found, don't create problems being carried in public, and lend themselves to being defined as more defensive than offensive. I have seen some TKD schools teach staff work but unfortunately the material is usually borrowed from Okinawan or Chinese sources simply because there is more OF that material in the media as VCR tapes, books, articles and now CD than of the Korean styles. There was not as much interest in sword work for quite some time and what there was tended more towards the Kendo form. In the last decade or so there has been an up-surge in Korean Sword from folks like the Hae Dong Gumdo people as well as the Kyong Dang, but this work is coming along slowly. For myself, I would like to see more work with polearms such as the "Crescent Spear" (C. "quandao") the Spear Sword, the Korean Flail and the various lengthes of single and multiple pointed spears. Since I am not a TKD practitioner there may have been great leaps forward I am not aware of, but these are the things I have seen among the TKD schools I have been involved with. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce