TKD school - sparring optional?

[puunui]

To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training. It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power. Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.

Then you two have different opinions on the Redman. Personally, I never used one and would like to try one day. Then I can have an opinion on it too. When I think of Redman, I think of Peyton Quinn's bulletman, which sort of looks like the prototype Iron Man what's his name built when he was imprisoned in the first movie. I would like to wear the suit as well as be the one defending against someone wearing it. I would think that the value of the experience is directly proportional to the ability and skill of the person wearing the Redman.

 

[puunui]

I only bring up myself and by extension my students as an example because you felt the suit was useless when people can hit very hard. We physically condition ourselves and our striking weapons. We use makiwara. We can punch. Hard.

What do you use to cover the makiwara? Rice rope or something else? Is it in the ground or one of those platform types? We had one in my Shotokan class, but they said it was only for the adults. Funny but I never really saw anyone using it, not even the adults. I did some makiwara with Professor Chow, who had an in ground one at his house. But he conditioned his hands with more hand held makiwara than the kind in the ground. I still have the one he gave me that he made himself. Personally, I prefer chinese hand conditioning, using Jow. I do think that hand conditioning is one of the keys to developing strong hand strikes, whatever method you use.

 

[dancingalone]

What do you use to cover the makiwara? Rice rope or something else? Is it in the ground or one of those platform types? We had one in my Shotokan class, but they said it was only for the adults. Funny but I never really saw anyone using it, not even the adults. I did some makiwara with Professor Chow, who had an in ground one at his house. But he conditioned his hands with more hand held makiwara than the kind in the ground. I still have the one he gave me that he made himself. Personally, I prefer chinese hand conditioning, using Jow. I do think that hand conditioning is one of the keys to developing strong hand strikes, whatever method you use.

It's just rope I bought at Home Depot. Cotton if I recall correctly, but the fibers are kind of rough which is exactly the characteristic I wanted. Rough enough to cut your knuckle skin if they are completely unconditioned and you punch incorrectly. My teacher says hemp is the best though.

I have both types of makiwara. Inside my dojo, the planks are set into the floor. There are some overflow makiwara outside which are the platform type. They're not used too frequently so they are covered with a canvas tarp until needed.

At my church, we have a large oak tree that I wrapped some foam padding around with duct tape. Then an outside striking layer of rope is wound around the padding. My church TKD class takes turns kicking the tree regularly, and I'll work it too with hand strikes from time to time. Don't think I'll ever break the tree however unlike makiwara.

I don't have children work with them either. I've been taught with the adage however that no makiwara practice = no punch either. Perhaps that is too extreme a viewpoint nowadays.

The stories I have read about Professor Chow said his hands and fingers were so conditioned they were almost stone-like and scarred to the point that the skin was black. Was that true?

 

[puunui]

The stories I have read about Professor Chow said his hands and fingers were so conditioned they were almost stone-like and scarred to the point that the skin was black. Was that true?

He was a very rough man with very heavy hands. He could probably pound nails into wood with his backfist. His fingers were like chisels and the skin was black, a combination of his racial makeup but also conditioning. He was constantly working out somehow, including his hands and his arms. He wasn't a tall man (5'2" or 3") but he was very powerful and solid. At seventy years old, his biceps looked like apples, and he was in as good a shape or in better shape as Jack Lalane and GM Jhoon Rhee. His main kick was front kick. He was also a wealth of martial arts knowledge. He had a huge library of books and magazines too. I would flip through some of the early Black Belt Magazines at his house and find hand written letters from Ed Parker in between the pages. I remember he had the three volume Hwa Rang Do book series from ohara, which was marked up with a pencil. His whole house was like a martial arts shrine. If I were smarter, I would have studied earlier and longer with him. My uncle has his student in the 1950's and introduced Professor Chow to his wife, so Professor was always grateful about that. He would come visit my uncle on a regular basis growing up (we lived next door) so I saw him growing up semi regularly. He always invited me to train with him, but he was a little crazy looking so I didn't want to join.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



i am starting to value your opinion......less

You beat me to it

 

[puunui]

I have both types of makiwara. Inside my dojo, the planks are set into the floor. There are some overflow makiwara outside which are the platform type. They're not used too frequently so they are covered with a canvas tarp until needed.

The ones inside your dojo, is that at your house? How do you set them into the floor?

At my church, we have a large oak tree that I wrapped some foam padding around with duct tape. Then an outside striking layer of rope is wound around the padding. My church TKD class takes turns kicking the tree regularly, and I'll work it too with hand strikes from time to time. Don't think I'll ever break the tree however unlike makiwara.

All my teachers who talk about makiwara talk about the importance of the makiwara having some give. Professor Chow said that some Kenpo practitioners would punch walls and that sort of thing but then they ended up with arthritis in their hands.

I don't have children work with them either. I've been taught with the adage however that no makiwara practice = no punch either. Perhaps that is too extreme a viewpoint nowadays.

I asked Chung Do Kwan founder GM LEE Won Kuk about makiwara training and his exact response (with a sparking gleam in his eye) was "No makiwara, no karate". The knuckles of my right hand were tingling when he said that, and I remember feeling guilty for neglecting that aspect of training. I always felt that makiwara training was important if you wanted to be able to shatter the chest armor of a samurai in sort of a "test punch", sort of like how they would test the sharpness and quality of a katana (long samurai sword) by test cutting on a helmet. One of the students of my juniors has a competitor who breaks his hand when punching in USAT National and WTF International Events, and I can't help but wonder if some makiwara training would fix that issue.

 

[mastercole]

I think we're hitting the point of diminishing returns, sir, but I will try once more.

Don't leave out the games and sports part of the definition, lest it becomes meaningless.

The definitions gives the reader a choice between three activities "exercises, sports, or games"

You could be an athlete in just exercises, just sports, or just games.

The definition does not make the term "athlete" exclusive to sports and games. That is the part you are overlooking and confused about.

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

 

[mastercole]

IQuote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
First, all martial arts are sports. Second, not all of my fighters attend tournaments. I use my fighters exclusively in examples because that is what the discussion was about.<<<

Not all martial arts are sports. We in Aikikai aikido have no sporting outlet although our Tomiki cousins do. There are many other examples such as old school Okinawan Te, which has no sparring within it.

As for the nature of the discussion, wellllllllll -

Old school Okinawa Te enthusiast Funakoshi Gichin Sensei disagrees with you. He said Okinawa Te is a sport.

Aikikai Aikido is also a sport, according to the first point of definition of sport;

sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion

Actually Aikikai Aikido gives all four, making it a super-sport.

1. Aikikai Aikido gives enjoyment. (to it's members)
2. Aikikai Aikido provides recreation. (for it's practitioners)
3. Aikikai Aikido provides a pastime. (for it's enthusiast)
4. Aikikai Aikido provides a diversion. (for all it's participants)

Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.

 

[mastercole]

I don't know if that would be an accurate conclusion though. Mastercole has a varied martial arts background including dan rank in Okinawan karate and Hapkido, in addition to holding master level rank in Kukki Taekwondo and Taekkyon. I don't know if I would necessarily peg him as a sport guy only, anymore than I would peg myself under that label. Even though we come from substantially different backgrounds, Mastercole and I sort of followed the same path, the path of two street kids who took an eclectic martial arts approach, primarily for "self defense" or fighting purposes, and eventually came to understand, appreciate and embrace all that Kukki Taekwondo has to offer.

That is correct. I was desperately searching for anything that might give me an edge and could not seem to get it fast enough. I really felt my life depended on it.

I doubt they had a series of boxes to check off on our original membership application back then, I think most parents would have solely checked off self defense

 

[mastercole]

I've dedicated a lot of sweat and time to my martial arts over the years. I was a full-time martial artist for over ten years, actively learning all over the world in a variety of disciplines. Learning, not teaching in a dojang somewhere. So on some things such as the caliber of what I teach, SD included, I'm very serious about and I will passionately advocate or defend my methods to anyone willing to listen.

I do take your point however. I can overdo it at times.

I would assume that most folks on these boards are active outside of their school and a number of them have over several decades of experience in martial arts.

One thing that does happen, and it maybe more apparent in those that don't get out of their own school much but I see in sometimes in others as well, is that we have to be careful that over time, we don't start to actually believe our own B.S.

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
Read above, I said fighting, I did not say drilling. Fighting is competing.<<<

Arguably fighting is not competing. Do people in a sparring match fight? I suppose that depends on your perspective. I would say not which is why I stated drilling above as the operative term.

Again and again, the dictionary disagrees with you As you can see below, the definition of fighting is competing, sparring and even a matter of athletic contest! Imagine that!

fight n. 1. A violent struggle, (as in)
strife, conflict, contention, feud, quarrel, contest, struggle, encounter, row, dispute, disagreement, battle, battle royal, confrontation, controversy, brawl, affray, affair, fray, bout, match, fisticuffs, boxing match, round, broil, fracas, difficulty, altercation, bickering, wrangling, riot, argument, dissension, debate, competition, sparring match, a coming to blows, rivalry, skirmish, scrimmage, clash, scuffle, collision, brush, action, engagement, melee, passage of arms, sortie, pitched battle, tilt, joust, combat, duel, exchange of blows, wrestling match, squabble, game, discord, estrangement, hostilities, imbroglio, disturbance, recontre (French), tiff, difference of opinion, falling-out, fuss*, mix-up*, tussle*, scrap*, free-for-all*, ruckus*, run-in*, showdown*, flare-up*, go*, rumpus*, donnybrook*, set-to*, rhubarb*, hassle*; see also dispute.

2. fight, a rather general word for any contest, struggle, or quarrel, stresses physical or hand-to-hand combat; conflict, which may apply to anything from armed fighting to mental struggle, refers to a sharp disagreement or clash, as between opposing groups, interests, or ideas, and emphasizes difficulty of resolution the conflict over slavery; struggle implies great effort or violent exertion, physical or otherwise the struggle for existence; contention most frequently applies to heated verbal strife, or dispute religious contention; contest refers to a struggle, either friendly or hostile, for supremacy in some matter athletic contests, a contest of wits

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mastercole
That is competing.

All competitions are not tournaments

Competing: 1. to strive consciously or unconsciously for an objective (as position, profit, or a prize) : 2. be in a state of rivalry

1. What objective would I be striving for? A position (of freedom from redman)
2. I would be in a state of rivalry with? redman<<<

I guess you can look at it that way if you want. <shrugs> It is a drill to me, just like when we work basic throws with a partner.

I'll look at it from the point of view of the actual definition of the word, of course making up your own definitions can make things more exciting

Possibly. I will let this drop. I am not interested in saying you are wrong or ignorant.

Then why bring up "wrong or ignorant"? If that is what you wish to say, I'm not going to stop you. Before you do, I would recommend that you first take time, slow down and read over the all the post I made above

 

[mastercole]

We physically condition ourselves and our striking weapons. We use makiwara. We can punch. Hard.

The makiwara is something that I have a great interest in. I have been training with it for about 26 years now. I have also been researching it's practice methods, and have interviewed leading seniors and leading researchers about it's use and positive and negative effects.

Who taught you how to use the makiwara? What was his name and what Kwan was he from?

 

[mastercole]

bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....

We are talking about martial arts, not eating. All martial arts are sports, according to the definition of sport. You should crack a dictionary

i am starting to value your opinion......less

Again, I'm quoting the dictionary, you may not like what it states and the facts might sound like hell, but it is fact and I know that stinks to hear that if you tend to make up your own definitions, but it is fact, look it up

"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell." ~ Truman, Harry S

 

[mastercole]

Originally Posted by dancingalone
To wit, the insistence that no hard hitter would find a Redman of value in training. It definitely is of little value if we are going to spar and whack each other, possibly with knockout power. Yet if we are open minded and think about other usages, I think it's a great tool, even if the participants have top power strikes.<<<<

You are confused again.

I use the redman and the bluemax for my students.

My fighters did not like the redman. I shared with you the opinion of a group of fighters who experienced the suits. Stop changing around what I said to suit your agenda and stick with facts, which you seem to have a hard time doing.

 

[mastercole]

What do you use to cover the makiwara? Rice rope or something else? Is it in the ground or one of those platform types? We had one in my Shotokan class, but they said it was only for the adults. Funny but I never really saw anyone using it, not even the adults. I did some makiwara with Professor Chow, who had an in ground one at his house. But he conditioned his hands with more hand held makiwara than the kind in the ground. I still have the one he gave me that he made himself. Personally, I prefer chinese hand conditioning, using Jow. I do think that hand conditioning is one of the keys to developing strong hand strikes, whatever method you use.

There is this Kungfu guy in Little Italy named Craig Anthony, he works at the cigar shop. Some time back we were talking about kungfu and jow came up. I told him about your recipe and he got all excited and ask if I could get it. There is a Chinese Herbal medicine shop in China Town where he can get the stuff. Is the recipe in Hanja and English? Is it still available?

 

[mastercole]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Fist
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



i am starting to value your opinion......less
You beat me to it

You beat me to it

Ralph, I never expect you or anyone to value my statements, opinion or fact. I don't put them out there to create value for me. But I would hope that that you could do much better than this...... I assume they have dictionaries in Australia? If not, it's easy to find one on the web.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Fist
bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzt

wrong answer thanks for playing.

just because you can do something in a competition setting, doesnt make it a sport, unless you think speed eating is a sport too....



i am starting to value your opinion......less
You beat me to it



Ralph, I never expect you or anyone to value my statements, opinion or fact. I don't put them out there to create value for me. But I would hope that that you could do much better than this...... I assume they have dictionaries in Australia? If not, it's easy to find one on the web.

what's a dictionary? Im from australia, I have no idea what you're talking about

 

[dancingalone]

The definitions gives the reader a choice between three activities "exercises, sports, or games"

You could be an athlete in just exercises, just sports, or just games.

The definition does not make the term "athlete" exclusive to sports and games. That is the part you are overlooking and confused about.

Athlete: a person who is trained or skilled in exercises, sports, or games requiring physical strength, agility, or stamina

Why are you skipping over what I said last night? That without a sporting context to tie into exercise, we would be forced to consider things like Soduku or singing athletics, as they too have 'exercises'.

Why do you also ignore the longstanding convention that martial activities outside of sporting contests don't use the term athlete or athletics to refer to themselves? For very good reason, I might add since those words have connotations undesirable in the pursuit of goals that don't involve a medal or trophy.

Do you know the etymology of the word athlete? It may have evolved from the Greek word athlon, or contest or prize.

Surely you can see that your argument for juxtaposing martial art and athletics is beyond credulity?

You are confused again.

I use the redman and the bluemax for my students.

My fighters did not like the redman. I shared with you the opinion of a group of fighters who experienced the suits. Stop changing around what I said to suit your agenda and stick with facts, which you seem to have a hard time doing.

Let me try to simplify for you. You've argued that hard hitters would not find the Redman useful to train with. I've argued the opposite, that when you do other things other than sparring, full contact or otherwise, that the suit can be a very good tool to train with. I don't care about any artificial distinction you choose to make between your 'fighters' and your apparently plebeian regular students. Hard hitting is hard hitting. What matters is the ACTIVITY itself, as I repeated to you numerous times now. And if you practice an activity suited to training with the Redman, such as SD with some tactical weapon considerations, amazingly the time spent with it might actually be worthwhile.

Again and again, the dictionary disagrees with you

Real usage does not. You are the one way out on the limb, trying to equate martial art to athletics, a position that which is not universally nor even widely held by other martial artists.

Old school Okinawa Te enthusiast Funakoshi Gichin Sensei disagrees with you. He said Okinawa Te is a sport.

Aikikai Aikido is also a sport, according to the first point of definition of sport;

sport (spôrt). noun 1. any activity or experience that gives enjoyment or recreation; pastime; diversion

Actually Aikikai Aikido gives all four, making it a super-sport.

1. Aikikai Aikido gives enjoyment. (to it's members)
2. Aikikai Aikido provides recreation. (for it's practitioners)
3. Aikikai Aikido provides a pastime. (for it's enthusiast)
4. Aikikai Aikido provides a diversion. (for all it's participants)

Sport again gives you options. You do not have to go to tournaments to participate in sports, as we see above.

Are you just engaging in debating tactics for the fun of it? Do you genuinely believe what you wrote? Really?

First, Funakoshi Sensei's students did indeed move KARATE-DO (not Te) into the sporting direction. Perhaps Funakoshi Sensei too felt this was a proper course to set for his art to gain acceptance in Japanese society. That said, many of his contemporaries, including his senior Miyagi, Chojun Sensei most assuredly did not share the same view about adding competition into their art. I'm further most bemused by the thought of the Okinawan masters from the 1800s when Te would have been the most likely name equating what they did to sport.

As for aikido, I know the vast majority of my contemporaries and seniors would find your assertion misguided at best. As would the Doshu and his shihan. Unless you know something that the people who actually practice the art don't? No, we don't consider aikido a sport. Nor should you, unless again you find that precarious limb something pleasant to perch upon.

One thing that does happen, and it maybe more apparent in those that don't get out of their own school much but I see in sometimes in others as well, is that we have to be careful that over time, we don't start to actually believe our own B.S.

Generally good advice. Would that we all follow it when appropriate.

 

[dancingalone]

The ones inside your dojo, is that at your house? How do you set them into the floor?

There is a second layer of wooden flooring sitting directly on the concrete. The makiwara post is mounted onto this layer with spring coils to allow it to move and spring back when struck. Above this layer is the 'true' layer of wooden flooring that we step on. There are slots cut through it from which the makiwara post comes up through.

All my teachers who talk about makiwara talk about the importance of the makiwara having some give. Professor Chow said that some Kenpo practitioners would punch walls and that sort of thing but then they ended up with arthritis in their hands.

I am mindful of that. The tree is an experiment of sorts. You heard stories no doubt of various MA legends who practiced their strikes upon trees. This is my attempt to play around with the myths. I have found it beneficial, although I understand it is not for everyone.