TKD/HKD - Childs Play

[mcjon77]

I think I am following what people are saying about Black Belts, but it seems to raise a question.

If the Black Belt is not given due respect until much farther along, of what possible use are the guep ranks? For me, the gueps are the level at which a person finds out about the goodness-of-fit between the art and ones' Self. The BB is a symbol of dedication to the manner in which one chooses to follow the Path, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

The guep ranks, for me, help provide a sense of structure and guidance as to what I should be focusing on at what time. In many styles, the curriculum to 1st dan is fairly large, and rather than a white belt attempting to haphazardly learn all of it at once, he is given a more sequential structure of how to learn the techniques. This is not to say that he focuses only on learning what is required for the next belt test, at the exclusion of all other things his Instructor has shown him. Rather, he is given a better idea on where to focus his time practicing in order to improve. If the process works correctly, you have a student who is consistantly improving, learning new techniques, while having a strong grasp of the fundamentals of the art. However, in order for this to work, the instructor must promote based on competence in the required areas, rather than merely time in grade.

Jon

 

[brothershaw]

I agree that someone with 3-6 years in has more experience than someone with 1 year, thats not rocket science. However if someone after one year has met at least the minimum qualifications for black belt ( as far as technical proficiency, and understanding of the material ) then why not give it to them. THas like making someone stay in college or high school for a extra years when they already met the requirements for the diploma or degree.
As we all have seen some people pick things up quicker than otheres, some people progress very slowly. If someone legitiamtely busts their - - - and is up to spec. they should be given the chance to test for it. MAny schools of various arts for a variety of reasons have time frame minimums and thats legitimate too, to some degree.

 

[howard]

The guep ranks, for me, help provide a sense of structure and guidance as to what I should be focusing on at what time. In many styles, the curriculum to 1st dan is fairly large, and rather than a white belt attempting to haphazardly learn all of it at once, he is given a more sequential structure of how to learn the techniques. This is not to say that he focuses only on learning what is required for the next belt test, at the exclusion of all other things his Instructor has shown him. Rather, he is given a better idea on where to focus his time practicing in order to improve. If the process works correctly, you have a student who is consistantly improving, learning new techniques, while having a strong grasp of the fundamentals of the art. However, in order for this to work, the instructor must promote based on competence in the required areas, rather than merely time in grade.

Jon

excellent points.

it seems to work best when there are 2 processes going on at once. one, the student focuses on the techniques required for their next rank, and learns to relate those techniques to the ones they already know. two, the student continues to improve the techniques required for all of their previous ranks, thus improving their foundation. this is probably the norm, since most kwans probably require you to demonstrate all techniques from the lowest rank to the rank you're currently testing for when you test.

promotion based simply on time in rank is just not right. it has to be based on proficiency in technique. having a minimum time requirement between ranks makes some sense, especially the higher you go. but promoting people just because they've been a certain rank for a certain period of time just makes no sense to me.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Brothershaw:

".....If someone legitiamtely busts their - - - and is up to spec. they should be given the chance to test for it....."

Yes-- and therein lies the crux of the matter as I see it. In my sojourn through the KMA I have seen WAY too many folks who have NOT been "up to spec" or did not test appropriately even whern given the chance. According to the Confucian Model one rises though a series of stages identified by the governement or authority and controlled by ridgid test requirements. This is a pretty old Korean tradition. I am not denying that a person who is competent should getr a chance to test. My experience however has been one of seeing repeated "grandfathering", or substitution of "like" skills for the requirements. For instance, a guy may be great at Judo, but it does not follow that he then rates getting a BB in Hapkido without training much in that art.

What makes this even worse is promoting young kids to BB with the illusion that they can not protect themselves from anyone on two legs. An 8 y/o with a BB is not going to take out a 30 y/o 1:1 and that is just reality talking. To my mind giving a kid a BB and not differentiating between an adult rank and a kids' rank is a disservice, maybe even a misrepresentation. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

"....promotion based simply on time in rank is just not right. it has to be based on proficiency in technique. having a minimum time requirement between ranks makes some sense,........"

Quite right. Pushing a kid ahead because they have been coming to class for a while smells a lot like pushing kids through the public school system when they don't know how to read or have basic classroom skills. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[MichiganTKD]

I think I am following what people are saying about Black Belts, but it seems to raise a question.

If the Black Belt is not given due respect until much farther along, of what possible use are the guep ranks? For me, the gueps are the level at which a person finds out about the goodness-of-fit between the art and ones' Self. The BB is a symbol of dedication to the manner in which one chooses to follow the Path, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

What I was told was that in Korea gup ranks are/were not used. You are a white belt until you are a Black Belt. I don't know if that's still the case. Gup ranks were not used in Tae Kwon Do until the Koreans came to the United States and instituted them as a way of keeping American students motivated. How many students in this country would really want to be a white belt until they test for black? Also, when Tae Kwon Do Instructors first came here, they were competing against Judo and Karate, both known styles, with an art very few people had ever heard of. Instituting gup ranks was a way of A. Motivating people to continue training, and B. Giving students a reference point for Tae Kwon Do (TKD uses gup ranks and color belts so it is similar to Karate and Judo).
Even today, I never see pictures of Korean color belt students.
As far as "Grandmaster" titles, right to a certain point. Even the founders of the Kwans never refered to themselves as Grandmasters or Kwan Jangs. They just called themselves the Instructor of X Dojang. My Grandmaster never refers to himself at 9th Dan as Grandmaster or Kwan Jang. He calls himself Senior Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I think refering to yourself as a Grandmaster, Kwan Jang, Supreme Grandmaster, Chiefmaster etc. as some people on this forum do, is an American invention. We just love to have our egos stroked.

 

[mcjon77]

.... since most kwans probably require you to demonstrate all techniques from the lowest rank to the rank you're currently testing for when you test.

Just wanted to make one comment on this. I used to study hapkido about 8 years ago, for a very short time. I was, however, able to go see several guep test and one dan test. The one thing I noticed was that they never tested you on lower ranked guep material in a higher ranked guep test (I never saw a person testing for red have to show one of the blue belt self defense patterns). However, for the black belt tests, they always did.

Infact, one of the most vivid memories I have was watching one of the candidates testing for black belt. He did all of the new techniques he was suppposed to learn for black belt well enough, but then they asked him to do some of the purple belt self defense techniques (the ones I was learning at the time). He had no clue what they were and resorted to making up something I had never seen before. They asked him to demo another technique from the lower belts and he didn't know that one either. Needless to say, he didn't pass that time (I moved out of the area later so I don't know whether he ever passed).

I always thought that If they tested on the lower belt stuff during every promotion test it would be much simpler for the students to remember, than to try to relearn all of it just for there black belt. But then again, it is probably the students responsibility to have kept up with the lower belt techniques.

Jon

 

[Jion]

What I was told was that in Korea gup ranks are/were not used. You are a white belt until you are a Black Belt. I don't know if that's still the case. Gup ranks were not used in Tae Kwon Do until the Koreans came to the United States and instituted them as a way of keeping American students motivated.

Historically speaking, that probably is not very accurate. The modern belt/gup/kyu system was first put in place by Jigaro Kano for judo, and then adopted by Funakoshi for use in Karate. Many of the first kwan instructors studied under Funakoshi or his students, and so used the same system their teacher used. Now, the amount of belts definitely did increase once they got here to the States, to keep our attention.

Even the founders of the Kwans never refered to themselves as Grandmasters or Kwan Jangs. They just called themselves the Instructor of X Dojang. My Grandmaster never refers to himself at 9th Dan as Grandmaster or Kwan Jang. He calls himself Senior Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I think refering to yourself as a Grandmaster, Kwan Jang, Supreme Grandmaster, Chiefmaster etc. as some people on this forum do, is an American invention. We just love to have our egos stroked.

In Korea, I've been told by both people living there currently and who have moved back, the title kwanjang refers to a business owner or manager. It basically means "Hey, I run this place." And to refer to yourself as grandmaster would just be tacky, anyway.

 

[terryl965]

Well my question is why do we hold the korean at such a high value if they hand out 1st Dans like a glass of water... And by the way most of you know how I feel about giving away a rank!!!! I believe you can learn the basic movements in a year just so you can get to first, but my friend say's if your at the right dojaang it will take as long as five years to obtain, just like here in the US you can find school that will just give you a belt for the right price would imagine the same over there as well.... God Bless America

 

[brothershaw]

Its one thing to mimic, but another to do correctly, a real good dancer or athlete , might be able to very quickly mimic the movements in a given martial art within a year, but it still might be mimicry, so that someoone with an eye could look and see that something is missing. If you know what I mean. Or you could something but not know why or when to do it.

 

[kwanjang]

The one thing I noticed was that they never tested you on lower ranked guep material in a higher ranked guep test (I never saw a person testing for red have to show one of the blue belt self defense patterns). Jon

I too have seen this in some dojangs, and IMHO this promotes replacing techniques with later techniques. For that reason, all tests (geup or dahn) must go through portions of all techniques in my schools. In fact, I am MUCH harder on students failing the lower belt materials they should have down pat, and I am a bit easier on grading any materials they have only just learned.

I always thought that If they tested on the lower belt stuff during every promotion test it would be much simpler for the students to remember, than to try to relearn all of it just for there black belt. But then again, it is probably the students responsibility to have kept up with the lower belt techniques.
Jon

Because techniques are often based on "what went before", it is essential to really work and learn the basics. Doing so is not just the responsibility of the student, it is also the job of the Instructor to make sure this is done.

There are several types of instructors around. Some will actually take the time to "teach" material, and others will merely "show or share" the stuff they have learned. The latter are NOT teachers, they are more like buddies who can't wait to show you the next cool thing they have learned. These so called Instructors rarely understand the techniques they do themselves (even if they can actually perform them quite well), they seldom are capable of getting someone else to understand them.

 

[Han-Mi]

In one year, training 6 days a week, one could easily learn every technique in TKD. However, could that person properly apply the technique in combat against a non-compliant opponent? Could this person use combinations of timing, distance and misdirection to trick the opponent into doing what they want them to? You can learn the information in one year, but you cannot learn the ability.:soapbox: I will go for giving the blackbelt after 1 year if they required 5 more years before 2nd dan.

HAHAHA, what was this post about originally? It just occured to me that it had nothing to do with rank.
%think%

 

[brothershaw]

To muddy the water a little bit more--

Of all the techniques that anybody is shown how many do they actually use. Better yet of all the things you are shown how much do you actually use. you might find that there are a handful of basic things that someone does very well, and most comfortable with , everything else ( especially under pressure) is forgottten or never used. Its foundational, just like mosat of your education is foundational, and depending on what you do for a living you may never use your h.s. chemistry etc.

So a person could train 6 days a week for a year, go through everything, practice the basic ( and most important stuff) and be pretty damn competent.

I am sure you all have noticed how some people either because they practice alot on thier own time or have some natural ability progress much faster than others who just practice when in class, or have a hard time grasping stuff.
So imagine training 6 days a week in one style, under competent instruction for a year.

 

[Han-Mi]

So a person could train 6 days a week for a year, go through everything, practice the basic ( and most important stuff) and be pretty damn competent.

I am sure you all have noticed how some people either because they practice alot on thier own time or have some natural ability progress much faster than others who just practice when in class, or have a hard time grasping stuff.
So imagine training 6 days a week in one style, under competent instruction for a year.

No. Quite simply you are reducing what I knew and was able to do as a 1st dan after 7 years of training to something that anyone can learn in 1 year. I refuse to validate anyon 1 year blackbelt.

 

[MichiganTKD]

I would never recommend someone to test for 1st Dan after a year no matter how good they were. If nothing else, they need to learn patience.

 

[kwanjang]

IMHO, it takes more time for the body to make technique second nature than it is for the mind to simply learn the techniques. Many children KNOW to place food in their mouths; however, many of them miss the target simply because they need more practice The more technique is in the requirements of an art, the longer it will take. Some arts so overload their front end curriculum that their students seldom get good at what they are required to do. In fact, some of these orgs are revamping their curriculum as they see the quality of their students decline.

 

[kik]

It really does amaze me that you can Join aTKD school and the Intructor will be more than willing to give you your 1st Dan within a year. At some schools it's guaranteed or your classes and promotion attempts are free until you do achieve 1st Dan.
I studied 6 days a week for 5 years before my teacher would let me take the test. I have been into TKD for almost 13 years and tested and recieved my 3rd Dan with my Kukkiwon certs. From looking into the different schools in my area It's pretty much turned into a money making Scam. I'm very disappointed with the way schools operate in my town.

KIK

 

[brothershaw]

Well no disrespect to anyone, I belive under the best ( meaning intensive training) circumstances, a person could bre trained to black belt in a year. This is keeping in mind that after passing the test they dont have to nor will they perform everything they are shown. As i said earlier most people in any style tend to prefer a few things that really work for them everything else is pretty much for training purposes anyway ( i.e. foundational) . People tend to prefer a few throws they do , a few combos, a few joint locks etc they can pull off when they need to. In a pressure situation they arent necessarily going to try anything too fancy.
For any black blets on this thread when sparring with other black belts for example do you try complex stuff or stick to good basic stuff that works for you, despite all the variety of things you had to learn to get to 1st dan?
Dont get me wrong I am not saying every/ and anybody should get to 1st dan in a year or 2. I am saying that there will be people ( probably a very small percentage ) who could earn it in that time.
In life in general poeple sometimes get too stuck on the it took me x amount of time/ work to get here, so nobody should get here any quicker, i wont allow it , it isnt possible.
Or more martial arts specific, I didnty learn this until such and such, so you wont either even if you are better at this stage than I was.
Any teahcer in martial arts or anything else who gets a really talented student should push them along as fast and as hard as they can, time and talent is too precious to waste, especially in martial arts where age and injuries are a big X factor.
Buying belts is a whole other story.

 

[Han-Mi]

Well no disrespect to anyone, I belive under the best ( meaning intensive training) circumstances, a person could bre trained to black belt in a year. This is keeping in mind that after passing the test they dont have to nor will they perform everything they are shown. As i said earlier most people in any style tend to prefer a few things that really work for them everything else is pretty much for training purposes anyway ( i.e. foundational) . People tend to prefer a few throws they do , a few combos, a few joint locks etc they can pull off when they need to. In a pressure situation they arent necessarily going to try anything too fancy.
For any black blets on this thread when sparring with other black belts for example do you try complex stuff or stick to good basic stuff that works for you, despite all the variety of things you had to learn to get to 1st dan?
Dont get me wrong I am not saying every/ and anybody should get to 1st dan in a year or 2. I am saying that there will be people ( probably a very small percentage ) who could earn it in that time.
In life in general poeple sometimes get too stuck on the it took me x amount of time/ work to get here, so nobody should get here any quicker, i wont allow it , it isnt possible.
Or more martial arts specific, I didnty learn this until such and such, so you wont either even if you are better at this stage than I was.
Any teahcer in martial arts or anything else who gets a really talented student should push them along as fast and as hard as they can, time and talent is too precious to waste, especially in martial arts where age and injuries are a big X factor.
Buying belts is a whole other story.

If you rush them too fast you risk them missing out on vital experiences. This is what creates what kind of martial artist you become, the experiences. 1 year is simply not enough time to experience what is needed to become mature enough and to ascend past basic ideas.
As for your question about going for fancy techniques. I do often use my spin and jump kicks in order to mis direct and confuse my opponent. Also, there are certain positions in mhich you end up after a technique where the best thing to do is a spin technique. It is one thing to use your bread n' butter move more than the rest, It is a whole other to forget the rest, and to stop training them.

I refuse to accept that a 1 year black belt is as good as a 4 year blackbelt until I see one of them beat one of my students.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Folks:

I was musing to myself over this string when I happened to remember a comment made some time back regarding a child prodigy who at a very tender age was graduating college. Despite the accomplishment on a technical level, a number of folks voiced concerns that the young graduate was not actually a college grad in the full sense of the word. The reason given was that though he had used is enormous intellectual ability to pass the classes he was too young to avail himself of the interpersonal and social development of the college environment. I believe that the same can be said of many of the pre-mature promotions in the KMA. Becoming a BB carries with it responsibilities to the community and ones peers beyond being able to do an acrobatic kick or well-timed throw. If a person is not able to meet the demands that dedication to a particular value system entails seems to be that person is just playing "dress-up". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce