Time!!

[Disco]

We have all seen the ongoing problems that seem to be deeply entrenched within the Hapkido world. At least from the Korean storefront. No need to go back and rehash all the wrongs that have been done. I do submit this question however for the future.

Isn't it time.....really time, for American Hapkidoin to take charge of their own? Many, if not all of the problems being inacted today could and should be eliminated with home rule. I broached this subject awhile back on another forum and it was politely given minimal response. Perhaps now is a better time frame to renew the possibilities. Again, no need to restate what everybody has seen happen, but some major developments have transpired which should alter some peoples perspectives.

:asian:

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Disco,

The man that was given the Doju nim title directly by Choi, Yong Sul lives here in the States, in New York (Manhatten, I believe). Can't get much more home rule than that.

If you are a follower of Ji, Han Jae, he has lived here in the States for many years.

I will continue to travel to Korea because it is a benchmark of training and technique of the kind I am looking for - and not readily found here in the states - and frankly, the Koreans I found in Korea so far are quite different than those here in the US - they are willing to share knowledge and experience without predjudice...

Maybe the issue is not home rule at all but the need to slow down the rank mills - many of which are in Korea - or simply to ignore those organizations that are the cause of so much trouble.

For those of you that think that these forums are only really populated by a few of us, I have had at least 24 new prospective students approach me with questions from stuff they read here...

Also , to add, there are very few Americans with strong lineage to authentic Hapkido anyway - maybe the idea to home rule is is best addressed as self-rule , like self rule of each school.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[ajs1976]

As a person who would like to study Hapkido, it is very frustrating and confusing to try to figure out what is going on. There are some many different organizations, that it is hard to tell which ones are legitimate and which are just scams.

I don't know that cutting out the Korean influence will help. There seems to be enough politics here too.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

As a person who would like to study Hapkido, it is very frustrating and confusing to try to figure out what is going on. There are some many different organizations, that it is hard to tell which ones are legitimate and which are just scams.

I don't know that cutting out the Korean influence will help. There seems to be enough politics here.

The best thing you can do as a person starting out in Hapkido is go and visit some dojangs. If you like the Instructor you have made a good start. The only cautions I offer is watch out for those that call themselves Founder, Great Grandmaster or other names that lack humility. There may be a person in your area that is truly a Founder of some art but it is unlikely. Watch out for anyone that just talks about themselves and all they have done! Any true Master or Grandmaster will have a humble but confident demeanor.
:asian:
Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

I agree with Master Miller, very sound advice there.

Politics are not a bad thing. They are a way to discuss often touchy matters without blows being thrown -

When you search out a new Hapkido school, ask about their politics - as long as it stays out of the training, I think that's OK - when it is too heavily mixed in then you may have a problem...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[iron_ox]

Doc Clean,

Just out of interest, where in the country (world) are you? Some here might be able to narrow your search...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[ajs1976]

The best thing you can do as a person starting out in Hapkido is go and visit some dojangs. If you like the Instructor you have made a good start. The only cautions I offer is watch out for those that call themselves Founder, Great Grandmaster or other names that lack humility. There may be a person in your area that is truly a Founder of some art but it is unlikely. Watch out for anyone that just talks about themselves and all they have done! Any true Master or Grandmaster will have a humble but confident demeanor.
:asian:

Currently, i'm taking TKD and the one steps and grabbing techinques are from Hapkido.

I would like to go to a Hapkido school to check it out, but I have not found one that I would be able to attend regularly. I have located two in the Pittsburgh area. One is a Combat hapkido school and the other appears to be a traditional school but both are to far away. In the near future, I might visit both, just to see live hapkido.

So far my learning about hapkido is what I do in my TKD class, what I have found in the web and the books I have looked through.

 

[Disco]

there are very few Americans with strong lineage to authentic Hapkido anyway.

Kind of opening the infamous Pandora's Box here, but that's for another thread.

Even though Ji is based here in the U.S., he represents only Sin Moo. Using the KHF as an example, they are shall we say the clearing house for what was 70 kwans but now revamped to 40 kwans. I'm sure the Kido or whatever it's name is now, also umbrellas several kwans also. I'm not disavowing the connection to Korea, they are of course the home school. Having a central home governing body to oversee and protect is only prudent.

Maybe the issue is not home rule at all but the need to slow down the rank mills - many of which are in Korea - or simply to ignore those organizations that are the cause of so much trouble.

That statement just reinforces the need for an American Organization. I believe we have enough "strong lineage to authentic Hapkido" people in place, to facilitate a governing board of directors.

Now granted, this only becomes a player if people want it. The old kwan/school certifications will always be the first step in training acceptance. It just seemed that so many people were enamored with the prospect of a so called "higher authority of acceptance", that it became it's own entity. I don't think that aspect of oversight is going away, so why not enact better controls?

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Disco,

Sorry, didn't want to open the Pandora's Box - my mistake.

But, I wonder how we institute control...the Ji side of Hapkido (if I may call it that) represents 75 -80% of Hapkido we see today. I would venture a guess that the vast majority of the so - called 40+ kwans of the KHF are Ji originated - the KHF from the older KHA which is Ji Based. The head of the KHF, Oh Sea Lim is a Ji Student - so I guess Ji could run that side of the fence.

The other side of the coin is the Choi side, many claim it, few are really from it. Here, there is a solid hierarchy and really no need of further control.

Funny, but I remember the talk of an American goverining body coming up and the funny thing was several people stepped in to start such a group, as long as they were the president - it was really very funny.

Hapkido alas will never be like Shotokan, with a single source and head, like the JKA - but we can do our best to self regulate individuals and organizations that create even further havoc in our midst.

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[Disco]

Kevin, as you pointed out, Ji's people (indirectly) encompass 80%+ of todays Hapkido practicioners. Choi's people as you also stated, control their own with a closer knit interface. I find it perplexing, to say the least, that people in general will ***** and moan about injustice and wrong doings and then allow themselves to become complacent without correcting the situation. Some have opted to find a new organization to align with, while others have just gone their seperate ways, while others fall into the complacent arena. But the problem(s) are still there, awaiting fresh participants to lose their way.

There are those out there that are asking themselves, "why is this guy so empassioned with this subject"? To answer, I've got no real stake in any of this. I have not been impacted in anyway by what has transpired. What has affected me is seeing my fellow practicioners being cheated, lied too and being asked to sit and take it. I'm just tired of seeing Americans in general in the KMA's, being treated like 3rd class citizens and cash cows. I fully understand that not everbody falls into this category. If they have a good relationship with their Korean Master instructor or organization they embrace, they are fortunate and I envy them. But I think the people affected have a duty to attempt to protect those fresh participants. If they can't resolve the problem(s), then at the very least afford the opportunity to bypass the problem makers.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Disco,

I tend to agree that individuals that have been wronged should stand up and tell the rest of us. Likewise, I believe that we can form our own opinions of an organization based on information reported in forums like this one. I think that my views of a certain Korean organization are well known here. But to assume that this means we need another "association" to add to the mix I think is unnecessary - what we may need is a real clearing house of information monitored by members of all camps that could disseminate information as it became available...

Sincerely,

Kevin Sogor

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Kevin:

".....I will continue to travel to Korea because it is a benchmark of training and technique of the kind I am looking for - and not readily found here in the states - and frankly, the Koreans I found in Korea so far are quite different than those here in the US - they are willing to share knowledge and experience without predjudice......"

Sorry to throw you into shock, guy, but I am right there with you and if anyone wants to listen I am more than willing to share why I am agreeing with someone with whom I have the odd philosophical difference on more than one occasion.

I was absolutely floored at how very different the folks I trained with in Korea were from the folks I trained with in the States. People gave of themselves because they were all together on the same journey and not because of some hidden agenda or as an act of guile. Sure it is true that Koreans are not queuing-up to train in KMA and I suppose there is a kind of sadness I feel about that still. All the same, the folks who DO come to train are all about training and sharing, and supporting and promoting their art. Students respect their seniors and seniors support their juniors. The most senior get some definite perks but I could find no exploitation of this and the care returned by the most elderly practitioners was of almost a "grandfatherly doting" rather than the imperious administrative model I have seen in the States.

To make the contrast even stronger I must report that I grew increasingly fretful whenever I would check my e-mail while in Korea and read contributions on various Nets here in the States. The whining, nastiness, bickering and mean-spirited-ness stood in such strong contrast to the acceptance and comraderie I was enjoying during my training over there.

I must say in all possible honesty that I have grown increasingly jaded to finding that sort of experience here in the States and it is worth it to me to wait and save my money for a single two week experience over there than anything I could possibly find here. In the last few years I have given free seminars, traveled at my own expense and freely shared whatever I could with anyone who was interested. The attitudes I have experienced in return, including suspicion, arrogance, ignorance and small-minded-ness, make continuing to bang my head against the wall little more than simple self-abuse. Oh, sure, I'll still make my thoughts known if I think it will help someone out but my money is on "the old country". If people want to play around with "home rule" I say, "go for it". Everybody needs a hobby.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

I fully understand were Bruce is coming from. But I ask this question.....Why does it have to be the "old country", why can't we have it here. It used to be very similar here in the U.S. many moons ago. Why can't we make the effort to bring it back, the way Bruce and others have experienced it over in Korea? It was here in some fashion once, when the original first Koreans instructors came here. There are many out there that can hardley afford training at home, much less spending money to travel overseas. Everyone is intitled to their opinion, but having a real home governing body, not just a bunch of small groups dealing with their own agendas, I feel would do more good for Hapkido in general than staying the course.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

why can't we have it here. It used to be very similar here in the U.S. many moons ago. Why can't we make the effort to bring it back,

This is exactly what members of the Jungki Kwan have been doing since 1996. This means getting with a Kwan and training with those qualified to teach. I have always tried to bring back the feel and atmosphere of the Jungki Kwan at my Dojang and anywhere I go. Always a long way to go though. :asian:

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[kwanjang]

... In the last few years I have given free seminars, traveled at my own expense and freely shared whatever I could with anyone who was interested. The attitudes I have experienced in return, including suspicion, arrogance, ignorance and small-minded-ness, make continuing to bang my head against the wall little more than simple self-abuse. Oh, sure, I'll still make my thoughts known if I think it will help someone out but my money is on "the old country". If people want to play around with "home rule" I say, "go for it". Everybody needs a hobby.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Hello Bruce:
Glad to hear you had a good time in Korea; however, you have been there just once I believe. Hard to make a sound evaluation on that one experience IMHO. I know that that my group (National Korean Martial Arts Association) and Master West's group (the USKMAF) right here in the US have welcomed you with open arms and shared our technique without asking for anything in return. I am somewhat surprised to see that you look at us a hobbyists after we opened our Dojangs to you.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Whoa!!!

Please don't go there. You have no idea how grateful I am to you and Master West for all of the extraordinary goodwill, guidance, warmth and support you have shared. There is simply no way I could ever return all that you folks have done for me. I think we are running the very real chance of mixing up apples and oranges here.

Had Mike advocated that people unite under an extant organization (say, Master Wests' USKMAF) or your own NKMAA I could see the logic. Or how about simply advocating identifying one of the other major organizations (IHF, WHF, WHA, KHF)--- I could see that. What I am hearing in Mikes' comment is yet again another attempt to unite people in fraternity who give every indication of interpreting the KMA as the Path of the Lone Wolf. Certainly folks will get together and share a training experience or two. What I am hearing Mike advocate is an on-going membership in an organization which will set policy, certify belts, maintain curricular integrity and so forth and I don't see such a thing happening among these practitioners.

Let me go one step farther and play the Devils' Advocate for just a moment, Rudy. Why DIDN'T Mike advocate for people to unite under an existing organization of established reputation? Arguably both you AND Master West are identified leaders in the KMA here in the West. Your organizations are established and have an acknowledged track record sustained over time. I submitt that the very reluctance of the people I identified in my previous post to join ANY organization is the very force that would sabotage an attempt to establish an organization along the lines that I hear Mike espousing. Thoughts? Comments? Anyone?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Todd:

"......This is exactly what members of the Jungki Kwan have been doing since 1996. This means getting with a Kwan and training with those qualified to teach. I have always tried to bring back the feel and atmosphere of the Jungki Kwan at my Dojang and anywhere I go. Always a long way to go though...."

OK, but lets just take just that single, small part and leave the larger picture go for a moment. Can, for instance, Westerners actually accomodate themselves to the concept of a "kwan"? Oh, I know, people use the term freely enough when identifying themselves. Just like all the other terms, MA buzzwords and phrases, the term "kwan" turns up over and over again. But do you REALLY think Westerners can support the idea of a voluntary collective bound by no more than fraternity and a unifying belief in accomplishing a particular goal through a specified method? I submit that Westerners are WAY too narcissistic and independence-minded to willfully enter into that sort of inter-dependence. Hell, you can't even get them to find that sort of bonding in the typical inter-personal relationship! Why would one expect them to do it organizationally!?! And I am speaking of just ONE Korean concept among an entire range of cultural concepts. How many Westerners are going to willfully surrender authority to another person let alone merely on the basis of seniority? How many Westerners are going to willfully contribute monies, time and energy---- without thought of return---- to an effort? I'm sure there are SOME folks--- but enough to constitute a full-scale administrative body? I say, look at the track-record. What Mike is advocating depends on an altruism or selflessness that is simply not part and parcel of the Western concept of KMA. Sorry. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Disco]

What Mike is advocating depends on an altruism or selflessness that is simply not part and parcel of the Western concept of KMA.

You just may be right with your assumption Bruce, but I personally would like to see the attempt made. We may just surprise ourselves. After all, there are many westerners already aligned under some banners (no names needed), who are now swinging in the wind because of problems. What I proposed was a governing board, not just one person. They keep their ranking, or if need be, everybody on the board starts even. Were dealing with, in my opinion, honorable men that have already proven themselves to the general Hapkido world and hold high rankings as it is. The rational for a new organization is to put everyone on a new equal footing without the perceived notion that some portion of the membership might be treated more favorably because we went under an existing banner. Now I must confess here, that any of this is predicated on the willingness of the current leaders of American Hapkido, to even entertain the plausibility of the endeavor.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

It is a learning process. When we all have new students walk into our dojangs they have to learn the etiqette, structure and techniques of any particular dojang. Traditional Mudo is not for everyone, this is why you see so many Mcdojangs. Hard strict training is for a few and this is how it will always be. IMHO Masters and Mudoin in general need to take to heart one of the most important tenants - Humility. This would change many of the problems we see in MA today.

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Bruce:
Glad to know that I read your post wrong.