Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
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- Mar 30, 2002
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Tilting at Windmills: Obsessive Fraud Busting in the Martial Arts
- Thread starter Phil Elmore
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K
Kirk
Guest
Great Article!
D
Disco
Guest
But alas, Don Quixote now has Poncho.
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Very good article indeed :asian:
Do you frequently find yourself drawn into very long, extremely angry debates with those you believe you've "outed" (or with their supporters)?
Would starting a thread about this, having it locked only to begin a new thread on the same thing time and again be a good example of this? I'm talking thread after thread after thread for a period of several months being a good example?
Have you had to change your phone number, start screening your calls, and/or conceal your e-mail address because you're receiving frequent hate mail and even death threats?
Could this also include receiving emails from these types of individuals that include profanity? Actually several emails with profanity and hatred?
Have you engaged in intellectual dishonesty or rhetorical ploys in an effort to more easily win arguments you were not winning? Have you felt the need to "win" at any cost for the sake of others who might be reading such exchanges?
Would this cover something like saying 'this doesn't apply to anyone here in particular, just a general statement' even though the examples given are real familar to what's been covered in say...the last 100 + posts about the same individual? And coincidentally receiving the abusive emails personally at the same time...on the same subject?
Do you feel the need to congratulate yourself smugly whenever you think you've found even the most tenuous piece of "evidence" proving you "right?"
Would this include some of the following...
If a poster says he usually doesn't wear a belt, but does so in a picture i.e. photo opportunity...and then this type of individual JUMPS in with a link to the picture and a Ah Hah gotcha' type post...does that qualify? I thought 'usually' meant most times you don't and occasionally you do. And how would posting a picture of someone wearing their BB help you prove your 'fraud' case in anyway? Isn't that just causing strife?
If a poster says he doesn't display any wall candy and this type of individual JUMPS in and posts a link to a picture with wall candy on the walls and trophies in the background and a 'Ah hah gotcha' type post...does that qualify? Even when the individual comes back to explain he rented space at the local FOP and the wall candy and trophies were the FOP's race car winnings and had nothing to do with martial arts...is that just causing strife? Doesn't seem to prove anything..or even a reason for it to be posted unless there is a vendetta.
How about this type of individual claiming to call organizations that he knows someone doens't belong to and then 'proclaiming' they don't belong to that organization? How about saying the individual MUST belong to that organization to be credible...even though the discipline is not indigineous to that organization's country?
How about claiming any other organization the person belongs to is invalid...without giving a valid reason why?
Are you widely known for your "fraud busting" activities, to the extent that people you've never met hold negative opinions of you for it?
I suppose this is dead on as far as certain individuals reputations. Self-proclaimed martial police, yet have no universal standard or authority to go by....
None of these signs are definitive by themselves, but if you experience one or more of the items listed here, you may have a problem. It may indeed be time to step back and examine critically your online and real-world behavior.
Very well put. Seems to be several signs indeed. I suppose the abusive emails were the straw that broke the camels back.
Perhaps it's time to....
Examining ourselves in this fashion is never easy. None of us likes to look in the mirror and acknowledge that we have erred, that we have "gone too far." If, however, you've experienced any of these symptoms, it's time to take that look. Do you really want your life to be an endless cycle of bickering and hatred? Is your self-esteem really so shriveled and underfed that the only way you can salve your wounded ego is to viciously attack others?
Especially when an individual, the victim of the attack has repeatedly put out a hand in friendship and apologized for words spoken in the heat of the moment. Seems to not to accept a sincerely offered hand is perhaps signs of deep seated issues....
A very well done article Phil. It has opened my eyes in regards to some individuals hostility. The hand is still there, still offered, still hoping for peace....honest and true peace. We shall see...
:asian:
Do you frequently find yourself drawn into very long, extremely angry debates with those you believe you've "outed" (or with their supporters)?
Would starting a thread about this, having it locked only to begin a new thread on the same thing time and again be a good example of this? I'm talking thread after thread after thread for a period of several months being a good example?
Have you had to change your phone number, start screening your calls, and/or conceal your e-mail address because you're receiving frequent hate mail and even death threats?
Could this also include receiving emails from these types of individuals that include profanity? Actually several emails with profanity and hatred?
Have you engaged in intellectual dishonesty or rhetorical ploys in an effort to more easily win arguments you were not winning? Have you felt the need to "win" at any cost for the sake of others who might be reading such exchanges?
Would this cover something like saying 'this doesn't apply to anyone here in particular, just a general statement' even though the examples given are real familar to what's been covered in say...the last 100 + posts about the same individual? And coincidentally receiving the abusive emails personally at the same time...on the same subject?
Do you feel the need to congratulate yourself smugly whenever you think you've found even the most tenuous piece of "evidence" proving you "right?"
Would this include some of the following...
If a poster says he usually doesn't wear a belt, but does so in a picture i.e. photo opportunity...and then this type of individual JUMPS in with a link to the picture and a Ah Hah gotcha' type post...does that qualify? I thought 'usually' meant most times you don't and occasionally you do. And how would posting a picture of someone wearing their BB help you prove your 'fraud' case in anyway? Isn't that just causing strife?
If a poster says he doesn't display any wall candy and this type of individual JUMPS in and posts a link to a picture with wall candy on the walls and trophies in the background and a 'Ah hah gotcha' type post...does that qualify? Even when the individual comes back to explain he rented space at the local FOP and the wall candy and trophies were the FOP's race car winnings and had nothing to do with martial arts...is that just causing strife? Doesn't seem to prove anything..or even a reason for it to be posted unless there is a vendetta.
How about this type of individual claiming to call organizations that he knows someone doens't belong to and then 'proclaiming' they don't belong to that organization? How about saying the individual MUST belong to that organization to be credible...even though the discipline is not indigineous to that organization's country?
How about claiming any other organization the person belongs to is invalid...without giving a valid reason why?
Are you widely known for your "fraud busting" activities, to the extent that people you've never met hold negative opinions of you for it?
I suppose this is dead on as far as certain individuals reputations. Self-proclaimed martial police, yet have no universal standard or authority to go by....
None of these signs are definitive by themselves, but if you experience one or more of the items listed here, you may have a problem. It may indeed be time to step back and examine critically your online and real-world behavior.
Very well put. Seems to be several signs indeed. I suppose the abusive emails were the straw that broke the camels back.
Perhaps it's time to....
Examining ourselves in this fashion is never easy. None of us likes to look in the mirror and acknowledge that we have erred, that we have "gone too far." If, however, you've experienced any of these symptoms, it's time to take that look. Do you really want your life to be an endless cycle of bickering and hatred? Is your self-esteem really so shriveled and underfed that the only way you can salve your wounded ego is to viciously attack others?
Especially when an individual, the victim of the attack has repeatedly put out a hand in friendship and apologized for words spoken in the heat of the moment. Seems to not to accept a sincerely offered hand is perhaps signs of deep seated issues....
A very well done article Phil. It has opened my eyes in regards to some individuals hostility. The hand is still there, still offered, still hoping for peace....honest and true peace. We shall see...
:asian:
Of course Phil you realize that by writting this essay you have opened the door for every Virtual Tough Guy and Virtual Sensei to stand up and shout, "Look! Look! I'm being oppressed! Come see the violence in the system!" In fact, it seems to have started already.
If you had not written this, I am sure the Hikuta Troll, The Rupert clan and Jack Savage would all be trying to paint you as an obsesed fraud hunter.
I think the key element to the whole thing is that some people want attention on the internet. This seems to be the reason for VS and VTGs, but there are a few people who seem to think that being a fraud hunter is a good way to look good int he eyes of others.
There are those of us that live in Japan and see arts claiming to be Japanese and can not help but point out that they are unknown here. There are a few people who have been hurt by fraudulant teachers and do not want others to suffer the same fate. Even more just get sick of self proclaimed experts barging in the middle of message boards and giving out questionable advice in an effort to look good in the eyes of others. But the guy who hounded you and me does not fall into these catagories. He just seems to desire a repuatation on the internet as one of the good guys. And when he is not right, he has to bulldoze over that perception and go quickly over to the dark side.
Ever see the episode of South Park with the boxing match between Satan and Jesus? There was a sub plot about Damien and his attempts to get in with the other kids. No one liked him and Cartman would not invite him to his birthday. So Damien gets the idea to pick on Pip, who is even more hated than he. Since Damien bullies the kid everyone else hates, they accpet him and let him into the party.
All I ever needed to know I learned from South Park.
It is the same dynamic in some cases. Some people have web sites devoted to hounding frauds. Since no one likes frauds, they give respect to the person cleaning up cyberspace. Thus, the fraud buster never has to prove himslef in constructive ways. But when the person who is hounding the frauds does it to gain acceptence in the eyes of others, they are really only two degres of diffence between them and the VS and VTGs.
As the controversial Philosopher and author Ayn Rand would put it, they are second raters. They care more about the image they project to others than in the opinion of the person that stares back at them from the mirror. The image others hold of them is the image they have of themselves and to destroy that image in cyberspace is to destroy themselves- a form of death. So anyone who crosses them or does not help them in their crusade (like the time you caught one of them in controdictory statements about his Japanese ability) they are targeted for attack.
That I think is a key sign to look for. If the person must alway have it his way and everyone who does not agree with him is an enemy- then you have a second rater. The person who makes it a point to keep the boards as free of bad advice from frauds are not a problem as long as they do not start lashing out at anyone who does not support them.
But again, we can expect all the guys who parade around the web sites trying to impress others with their masterfull ability to stand up and very loudly announce that their accusers are the ones you are talking about.
If you had not written this, I am sure the Hikuta Troll, The Rupert clan and Jack Savage would all be trying to paint you as an obsesed fraud hunter.
I think the key element to the whole thing is that some people want attention on the internet. This seems to be the reason for VS and VTGs, but there are a few people who seem to think that being a fraud hunter is a good way to look good int he eyes of others.
There are those of us that live in Japan and see arts claiming to be Japanese and can not help but point out that they are unknown here. There are a few people who have been hurt by fraudulant teachers and do not want others to suffer the same fate. Even more just get sick of self proclaimed experts barging in the middle of message boards and giving out questionable advice in an effort to look good in the eyes of others. But the guy who hounded you and me does not fall into these catagories. He just seems to desire a repuatation on the internet as one of the good guys. And when he is not right, he has to bulldoze over that perception and go quickly over to the dark side.
Ever see the episode of South Park with the boxing match between Satan and Jesus? There was a sub plot about Damien and his attempts to get in with the other kids. No one liked him and Cartman would not invite him to his birthday. So Damien gets the idea to pick on Pip, who is even more hated than he. Since Damien bullies the kid everyone else hates, they accpet him and let him into the party.
All I ever needed to know I learned from South Park.
It is the same dynamic in some cases. Some people have web sites devoted to hounding frauds. Since no one likes frauds, they give respect to the person cleaning up cyberspace. Thus, the fraud buster never has to prove himslef in constructive ways. But when the person who is hounding the frauds does it to gain acceptence in the eyes of others, they are really only two degres of diffence between them and the VS and VTGs.
As the controversial Philosopher and author Ayn Rand would put it, they are second raters. They care more about the image they project to others than in the opinion of the person that stares back at them from the mirror. The image others hold of them is the image they have of themselves and to destroy that image in cyberspace is to destroy themselves- a form of death. So anyone who crosses them or does not help them in their crusade (like the time you caught one of them in controdictory statements about his Japanese ability) they are targeted for attack.
That I think is a key sign to look for. If the person must alway have it his way and everyone who does not agree with him is an enemy- then you have a second rater. The person who makes it a point to keep the boards as free of bad advice from frauds are not a problem as long as they do not start lashing out at anyone who does not support them.
But again, we can expect all the guys who parade around the web sites trying to impress others with their masterfull ability to stand up and very loudly announce that their accusers are the ones you are talking about.
OP
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,514
- Reaction score
- 54
- Thread Starter
- #6
Don,
Very true. When I wrote this article I had one particularly obsessive fraud-buster in mind -- and I know you know of whom I'm thinking ( ) -- but I also see real value in arguing for perspective. The irony is that all of the profiling guides cut both ways; I've even had people quote my own troll guide back at me to accuse me of being a troll. I would also be lying if I didn't say that placing this particular editorial on my site gives me a degree of preemptive defense from those who would, as you've said, accuse me of being that type of obsessive fraud-hunter.
One day it occurred to me that I could use the troll guides to marginalize anyone with whom I disagreed. That's when I figured I'd better keep a close eye on myself.
The saving grace in using any of the profiling guides will be that you can produce, side by side, text from the guides and text written by the potential poseur in question. If they match to a high degree, that's going to be hard to deny, no matter how loudly they squeal that they're the target of an obsessive fraud-buster.
There's also a clever built-in trap: Any poseur who holds up the Windmills article as evidence of unfairness to him or to her is accepting the premise that what I've written is valid -- that I have the perception to be able to comment on the matter. They cannot, then, without appearing hypocritical, accept that article without a willingess to accept the validity of my perception with regard to the other profiling guides. Anyone who tries to have it both ways can be immediately called on this contradiction.
Oooh, I'm a stinker. :rofl:
Very true. When I wrote this article I had one particularly obsessive fraud-buster in mind -- and I know you know of whom I'm thinking (
) -- but I also see real value in arguing for perspective. The irony is that all of the profiling guides cut both ways; I've even had people quote my own troll guide back at me to accuse me of being a troll. I would also be lying if I didn't say that placing this particular editorial on my site gives me a degree of preemptive defense from those who would, as you've said, accuse me of being that type of obsessive fraud-hunter.One day it occurred to me that I could use the troll guides to marginalize anyone with whom I disagreed. That's when I figured I'd better keep a close eye on myself.
The saving grace in using any of the profiling guides will be that you can produce, side by side, text from the guides and text written by the potential poseur in question. If they match to a high degree, that's going to be hard to deny, no matter how loudly they squeal that they're the target of an obsessive fraud-buster.
There's also a clever built-in trap: Any poseur who holds up the Windmills article as evidence of unfairness to him or to her is accepting the premise that what I've written is valid -- that I have the perception to be able to comment on the matter. They cannot, then, without appearing hypocritical, accept that article without a willingess to accept the validity of my perception with regard to the other profiling guides. Anyone who tries to have it both ways can be immediately called on this contradiction.
Oooh, I'm a stinker. :rofl:
Originally posted by Don Roley
Of course Phil you realize that by writting this essay you have opened the door for every Virtual Tough Guy and Virtual Sensei to stand up and shout, "Look! Look! I'm being oppressed! Come see the violence in the system!" In fact, it seems to have started already.
If you had not written this, I am sure the Hikuta Troll, The Rupert clan and Jack Savage would all be trying to paint you as an obsesed fraud hunter.
I think the key element to the whole thing is that some people want attention on the internet. This seems to be the reason for VS and VTGs, but there are a few people who seem to think that being a fraud hunter is a good way to look good int he eyes of others.
There are those of us that live in Japan and see arts claiming to be Japanese and can not help but point out that they are unknown here. There are a few people who have been hurt by fraudulant teachers and do not want others to suffer the same fate. Even more just get sick of self proclaimed experts barging in the middle of message boards and giving out questionable advice in an effort to look good in the eyes of others. But the guy who hounded you and me does not fall into these catagories. He just seems to desire a repuatation on the internet as one of the good guys. And when he is not right, he has to bulldoze over that perception and go quickly over to the dark side.
Ever see the episode of South Park with the boxing match between Satan and Jesus? There was a sub plot about Damien and his attempts to get in with the other kids. No one liked him and Cartman would not invite him to his birthday. So Damien gets the idea to pick on Pip, who is even more hated than he. Since Damien bullies the kid everyone else hates, they accpet him and let him into the party.
All I ever needed to know I learned from South Park.
It is the same dynamic in some cases. Some people have web sites devoted to hounding frauds. Since no one likes frauds, they give respect to the person cleaning up cyberspace. Thus, the fraud buster never has to prove himslef in constructive ways. But when the person who is hounding the frauds does it to gain acceptence in the eyes of others, they are really only two degres of diffence between them and the VS and VTGs.
As the controversial Philosopher and author Ayn Rand would put it, they are second raters. They care more about the image they project to others than in the opinion of the person that stares back at them from the mirror. The image others hold of them is the image they have of themselves and to destroy that image in cyberspace is to destroy themselves- a form of death. So anyone who crosses them or does not help them in their crusade (like the time you caught one of them in controdictory statements about his Japanese ability) they are targeted for attack.
That I think is a key sign to look for. If the person must alway have it his way and everyone who does not agree with him is an enemy- then you have a second rater. The person who makes it a point to keep the boards as free of bad advice from frauds are not a problem as long as they do not start lashing out at anyone who does not support them.
But again, we can expect all the guys who parade around the web sites trying to impress others with their masterfull ability to stand up and very loudly announce that their accusers are the ones you are talking about.
I started reading your post thinking that you were taking sides then as I read further it seemed you were validating the article and Phil actually "touched it" in the following post", saying the article goes "both ways."
Maybe its a simple as "if the shoe fits.":asian:
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Well Don, well Ken, lets take a look at your posts shall we
Interesting response. About the only one that you could come up with perhaps? Whom do you think I'm describing? Whom do you think is the author of the profane 'love letter' emails is? Take a long look at me post [actually I know you have already]. Do we both know the individual I'm discussing...sure we do. Did I hit the bullseye with that post...you KNOW I did. You should be a little more concerned with your friends well being than rushing to his defense. He is obsessed. I'm sure even you can see this.
Or is it normal to send profane hate mail? Is it normal to have a thread closed only to begin a new one afresh on the same topic? Is it normal to accuse posters of being someone else only to find out they aren't and then getting suspended as a result....again? Or is it normal to obsess over a misused word? The issue of which was resolve in HIS favor, and with thanks several months ago...and he STILL harbours the grudge as of yesterday. Is that normal Don, is that normal Ken? Don't worry about me...worry about your friend. His fool's errand is consuming him.
Bingo...but only partially correct. I think he has deeper issues at work here.
Who has done this? And how is it an excuse for unacceptable obsessive behavior?
Absolutely! I'm with you 100% on this...lets get em together. But does this apply to anyone here on this board?
With you again all the way on this! But whom does it apply to? Who is giving questionable advice? And by what standard are we judging them?
Sorry, you lost me here. I haven't watched cartoons since I was a kid and that was a LONG time ago.
It boils down to this gentlemen, with all rivalry aside. If we KNOW a poster is a fraud and have PROOF from FIRSTHAND knowledge then we owe our fellows to post the information. However, the misuse of a word...doesn't make one a fraud. It makes one mistaken. And if the mistake is realised and corrected with thanks offered...continued harping on it is obsession and/or immaturity. Attacking a poster repeatedly from their very first day here with MULTIPLE hostile posts, not even giving fair opportunity for the individual to respond to the first one is obsesive as well. And then whining about that poster not wanting to be all chummy and share their background in deep detail...what a shock. And then to promote the LIE that the poster 'refuses' to share any information in the hope of casting the shadow of impropriety...when the individual HAS shared in great detail quite a bit of information to multiple posters over the course of many months.
And the matter of unsolicited vulgar and profane emails speaks to itself wouldn't you say? Any excuse for this from an adult? Bottom line, Robert doesn't like me because I've dared to stand up to him in front of everyone here. I'm not 'wowed' by his 'wisdom'. He's been correct on some things and I've thanked him. And I really think it erkes him that he's had to apologize to me for his bad behavior. But because I chose to openly share myself with others instead of him, does not give him license to open up thread after thread with unsubstantiated inuendo and false allegations of impropriety. And above that I've given ample infomation both for LEO sources as well as martial sources for individuals to check me out to their hearts content. I've invited email corrospondence as well as chat room diolouge.
Basically its put up or shut up time. Either call my agency to verify what I've said or shut up. I've offered to give contact numbers. Either contact those organizations I've listed for references or shut up. Either come down here an 'bust' my school or shut up.
Or certain people can get the chip of their shoulders, realize there is NO impropriety, NO fraud, No wrong doing and fellowship in peace here and learn from others and teach others in the fashion this board was designed for. Paper is only paper with someones name on it. Doesn't reflect skill, teaching ability, experience or someone's heart. Time to get to know the person and STOP worrying about their paper.
Stay safe
:asian:
Interesting response. About the only one that you could come up with perhaps? Whom do you think I'm describing? Whom do you think is the author of the profane 'love letter' emails is? Take a long look at me post [actually I know you have already]. Do we both know the individual I'm discussing...sure we do. Did I hit the bullseye with that post...you KNOW I did. You should be a little more concerned with your friends well being than rushing to his defense. He is obsessed. I'm sure even you can see this.
Or is it normal to send profane hate mail? Is it normal to have a thread closed only to begin a new one afresh on the same topic? Is it normal to accuse posters of being someone else only to find out they aren't and then getting suspended as a result....again? Or is it normal to obsess over a misused word? The issue of which was resolve in HIS favor, and with thanks several months ago...and he STILL harbours the grudge as of yesterday. Is that normal Don, is that normal Ken? Don't worry about me...worry about your friend. His fool's errand is consuming him.
Bingo...but only partially correct. I think he has deeper issues at work here.
Who has done this? And how is it an excuse for unacceptable obsessive behavior?
Absolutely! I'm with you 100% on this...lets get em together. But does this apply to anyone here on this board?
With you again all the way on this! But whom does it apply to? Who is giving questionable advice? And by what standard are we judging them?
Sorry, you lost me here. I haven't watched cartoons since I was a kid and that was a LONG time ago.
It boils down to this gentlemen, with all rivalry aside. If we KNOW a poster is a fraud and have PROOF from FIRSTHAND knowledge then we owe our fellows to post the information. However, the misuse of a word...doesn't make one a fraud. It makes one mistaken. And if the mistake is realised and corrected with thanks offered...continued harping on it is obsession and/or immaturity. Attacking a poster repeatedly from their very first day here with MULTIPLE hostile posts, not even giving fair opportunity for the individual to respond to the first one is obsesive as well. And then whining about that poster not wanting to be all chummy and share their background in deep detail...what a shock. And then to promote the LIE that the poster 'refuses' to share any information in the hope of casting the shadow of impropriety...when the individual HAS shared in great detail quite a bit of information to multiple posters over the course of many months.
And the matter of unsolicited vulgar and profane emails speaks to itself wouldn't you say? Any excuse for this from an adult? Bottom line, Robert doesn't like me because I've dared to stand up to him in front of everyone here. I'm not 'wowed' by his 'wisdom'. He's been correct on some things and I've thanked him. And I really think it erkes him that he's had to apologize to me for his bad behavior. But because I chose to openly share myself with others instead of him, does not give him license to open up thread after thread with unsubstantiated inuendo and false allegations of impropriety. And above that I've given ample infomation both for LEO sources as well as martial sources for individuals to check me out to their hearts content. I've invited email corrospondence as well as chat room diolouge.
Basically its put up or shut up time. Either call my agency to verify what I've said or shut up. I've offered to give contact numbers. Either contact those organizations I've listed for references or shut up. Either come down here an 'bust' my school or shut up.
Or certain people can get the chip of their shoulders, realize there is NO impropriety, NO fraud, No wrong doing and fellowship in peace here and learn from others and teach others in the fashion this board was designed for. Paper is only paper with someones name on it. Doesn't reflect skill, teaching ability, experience or someone's heart. Time to get to know the person and STOP worrying about their paper.
Stay safe
:asian:
R
RCastillo
Guest
I also agree, great article. Luckily for me, I've never gotten into an argument over the arts on this forum .Nothing to be solved by doing it. All I wanna do is teach, learn, and grow, nothing more.:asian:
A
A.R.K.
Guest
I think that is excellent wisdom for all of us to follow.
:asian:
So in that light I offer the following. Robert, Don, Ken and anyone else to which this may apply, time to drop the sabres. Time to realize their is no enemy here. No one is defrauding anyone, no one is laughing to the bank, no one is teaching inappropriately. We can ALL learn from each other in the sharing of experience and techniques. We should ALL be willing to learn what the other has of value to offer.
So I look forward to teaching, learning and growing with each of you. Peace.
:asian:
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Don,
Is it an attack? Is anything I've posted false? Would you like me to forward you his love letters? I've played defense and the nice guy for the most part for several months. His allegations are false, plain and simple. His conduct is unacceptable. By bringing this out into the open appears to be the only way to hopefully bring it to an end. I have put my hand out there in peace a dozen times only to have him spit on it with a snide remark or a nasty email or another false accusation or outright lie.
Answer the questions in my post above. I can respect that he is your buddy. I know you want to defend him. But is his behaviour acceptable to you? Do you condone profane emails Don? Do you condone repeated attacks without any supporting data to back it up. My God, the issue of the word soke was resolved back in February, it is now May and he is STILL carrying on about it. I even thanked him for the correction. Do you consider it normal to still be carrying on about it months later?
You think about it and get back to me.
:asian:
Is it an attack? Is anything I've posted false? Would you like me to forward you his love letters? I've played defense and the nice guy for the most part for several months. His allegations are false, plain and simple. His conduct is unacceptable. By bringing this out into the open appears to be the only way to hopefully bring it to an end. I have put my hand out there in peace a dozen times only to have him spit on it with a snide remark or a nasty email or another false accusation or outright lie.
Answer the questions in my post above. I can respect that he is your buddy. I know you want to defend him. But is his behaviour acceptable to you? Do you condone profane emails Don? Do you condone repeated attacks without any supporting data to back it up. My God, the issue of the word soke was resolved back in February, it is now May and he is STILL carrying on about it. I even thanked him for the correction. Do you consider it normal to still be carrying on about it months later?
You think about it and get back to me.
:asian:
D
Disco
Guest
The title and subject of this thread was about "Obsessive Behavior - Fraud Busting. There is only one person who has taken it upon himself to be the vanguard of so called justice. Conversely, there is only one person who has been the brunt of this petulant sensibility. Opening multiple threads, inundated with inuendo and then having the unmitigated gall to state that it was not aimed at anyone in particular. That to me was an insult to everyone that can read and think for themselves. In addition, enlisting the aid of friends to join the foray to bolster his position, is beyond reprehensible.
I fully anticipate a full blown counter insult barrage from the accused camp and from some of the fringe dwellers. All I can say is "HAVE AT IT". No matter what you try to convey in words to turn the situation in your favor, like using the guise of a double entendre, rational people see through that.
It's time for both parties involved to cease and desist. These threads are taking the bulk of the input. It's like watching a tag team wrestling match. I keep waiting for Vince McMann to make an appearance. I'm through with my dissertation. I'll go get my suit of armor from the closet.............
I fully anticipate a full blown counter insult barrage from the accused camp and from some of the fringe dwellers. All I can say is "HAVE AT IT". No matter what you try to convey in words to turn the situation in your favor, like using the guise of a double entendre, rational people see through that.
It's time for both parties involved to cease and desist. These threads are taking the bulk of the input. It's like watching a tag team wrestling match. I keep waiting for Vince McMann to make an appearance. I'm through with my dissertation. I'll go get my suit of armor from the closet.............
A.R.K.
If you want to resolve this issue between you and RyuShiKan, perhaps you should look to your own behavior and take responsibility. The central problem seems to be that you want to be accpeted as an experienced and skilled practicioner, but you do not seem very knowledgable about the subjects you talk about (case it point- your adopting the term "soke" without bothering to learn the full meaning beforehand) and you can not seem to prove any of your claims. For all anyone knows, you are a yellow belt or less. If you can prove otherwise, great. But the problem comes when you want to be treated as more than you can prove.
In short, you act like a Virtual Tough Guy. If you think that Phil's insight into human behavior is good in this new article, then you should pay attention to what he wrote about VTGs on his web site.
This is a sample warning sign of a VTG according to Phil.
Now let us take a look at what I found by using the "search" button and going back to your very first post.
See a resemblence?
If you take responsibiity for your actions, you may be able to solve this problem. But if you do not want to change your behavior and merely blame others for the treatment you get, then the problems are going to continue. Is your ego so fragile that you need to be treated as more than a yellow belt? Do you need to make claims and have people respect you for them without showing proof?
If you just started acting like a person with no experience, or were able to prove the experience you claim, the problems would go away tommorow. But if you just want to posture, then RyuShiKan will always have reason to poke holes in your aurguments.
If you want to resolve this issue between you and RyuShiKan, perhaps you should look to your own behavior and take responsibility. The central problem seems to be that you want to be accpeted as an experienced and skilled practicioner, but you do not seem very knowledgable about the subjects you talk about (case it point- your adopting the term "soke" without bothering to learn the full meaning beforehand) and you can not seem to prove any of your claims. For all anyone knows, you are a yellow belt or less. If you can prove otherwise, great. But the problem comes when you want to be treated as more than you can prove.
In short, you act like a Virtual Tough Guy. If you think that Phil's insight into human behavior is good in this new article, then you should pay attention to what he wrote about VTGs on his web site.
This is a sample warning sign of a VTG according to Phil.
Now let us take a look at what I found by using the "search" button and going back to your very first post.
See a resemblence?
If you take responsibiity for your actions, you may be able to solve this problem. But if you do not want to change your behavior and merely blame others for the treatment you get, then the problems are going to continue. Is your ego so fragile that you need to be treated as more than a yellow belt? Do you need to make claims and have people respect you for them without showing proof?
If you just started acting like a person with no experience, or were able to prove the experience you claim, the problems would go away tommorow. But if you just want to posture, then RyuShiKan will always have reason to poke holes in your aurguments.
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Disco,
Great post, seems to have fallen on deaf ears though.
Don,
It seems your only purpose for being here is to bolster Robert. I'm not surprised.
Oh I have. I've emailed and PM'd Robert many times, often with thanks. I get profanity in return. Again I ask if you condone this?
More handwaving from Robert's camp. I do have experience as verified by other posters. Even Robert isn't going to touch that, you should take his lead.
I've been thanked for numerous posts, even from posters I disagree with occasionally. Not that I'm special, but we all can contribute something from our experiences.
Case in point-Soke, very easy mistake with the tons of people using it. My belief was that it simply meant founder...and that is what I am...simply a founder. Robert heaped more into it than that and continues to harp on it. Nobody knows everything Don, not even Robert. And not knowing the correct meaning of a word is no reflection on my ability or experience. It is a word, nothing more or less. And I am always open to 'constructive' criticism and dropped it months ago. And yet he...and now you bring it up again and again and again. Weak argument...move on.
As far as my 'claims', what would those be Don? You wouldn't even be aware of my rank had not Robert brought it up time and again...or emailed you to get you on board? And I have backed it up numerous times to numerous people. You keep missing that time and again, though I've posted it to you numerous times. Why is that Don? Selective reading on your part? People here have posted as to my validity. Selective viewing on your part Don? Robert seems to feel that people need to bow down to his demands like he's king of the hill. I'm here to tell you...he's not. And for the longest time I choose not to discuss anything with him...I have with others in detail. I even offered to speak with him via email about it to clear the air, he knows the organizations with which I fellowship. It's not a secret. He knows how to make a phone call, or send an email to request references, he's choosen not to. Rather he would prefer to go the route of 'open yet another thread' and lie. Gosh Don, do you condone that? Your awefully silent on these types of question Don, any reason for that? Agenda perhaps? Not working to grand at the moment is it.
Common debators tactic Don, and poorly done. Many people here know me personally, and they've backed me up. Yellow belt indeed
Been done...where ya been? :shrug: Not satisfied? Email those organizations yourself, won't cost you anything. Not satisfied? I've told you to call my agency, ask them about the latest issue of the 'Star' magazine, an agency wide magazine [maybe I'm in there???]. Want some names and numbers of martail artists in the area that know me Don? Cause Gosh Don, I want YOU to be satisfied.
In regards to my first post...read it again. My only mistake was the soke thing. Put it as Hi, I'm the founder of my system. I've been BLESSED with an extensive background...yeah saying I've been blessed...how cocky of me Uh Don, I have had 30 years of training, I've worn a uniform for two decades, I have had the opportunity and BLESSINGS to train with some really big people cause of my career. And offering to share anything I could with anyone else interested...how DARE I! Should keep it all to myself I suppose :shrug: And then ending it with happy to be here and I wanna LEARN from others as well..yeah I can see you having a major problem with that as well, imagine wanting to come in here and learn stuff.
If you all don't like me, or what I have to say then activate the little ignore button and you won't have to worry about it. But don't say I haven't 'offered' anything...cause I have, and it's posted with dates and times. Easy matter to cut n paste all of your ill chosen and misleading comments. OR you can stop acting like Robert's peanut gallery and let it die. Concentrate on training and learning and teaching. What a novel concept. Maybe someone should come up with a website where people can go to and do just that....oh wait...they have.
:asian:
Great post, seems to have fallen on deaf ears though.
Don,
It seems your only purpose for being here is to bolster Robert. I'm not surprised.
Oh I have. I've emailed and PM'd Robert many times, often with thanks. I get profanity in return. Again I ask if you condone this?
More handwaving from Robert's camp. I do have experience as verified by other posters. Even Robert isn't going to touch that, you should take his lead.
I've been thanked for numerous posts, even from posters I disagree with occasionally. Not that I'm special, but we all can contribute something from our experiences.
Case in point-Soke, very easy mistake with the tons of people using it. My belief was that it simply meant founder...and that is what I am...simply a founder. Robert heaped more into it than that and continues to harp on it. Nobody knows everything Don, not even Robert. And not knowing the correct meaning of a word is no reflection on my ability or experience. It is a word, nothing more or less. And I am always open to 'constructive' criticism and dropped it months ago. And yet he...and now you bring it up again and again and again. Weak argument...move on.
As far as my 'claims', what would those be Don? You wouldn't even be aware of my rank had not Robert brought it up time and again...or emailed you to get you on board? And I have backed it up numerous times to numerous people. You keep missing that time and again, though I've posted it to you numerous times. Why is that Don? Selective reading on your part? People here have posted as to my validity. Selective viewing on your part Don? Robert seems to feel that people need to bow down to his demands like he's king of the hill. I'm here to tell you...he's not. And for the longest time I choose not to discuss anything with him...I have with others in detail. I even offered to speak with him via email about it to clear the air, he knows the organizations with which I fellowship. It's not a secret. He knows how to make a phone call, or send an email to request references, he's choosen not to. Rather he would prefer to go the route of 'open yet another thread' and lie. Gosh Don, do you condone that? Your awefully silent on these types of question Don, any reason for that? Agenda perhaps? Not working to grand at the moment is it.
Common debators tactic Don, and poorly done. Many people here know me personally, and they've backed me up. Yellow belt indeed
Been done...where ya been? :shrug: Not satisfied? Email those organizations yourself, won't cost you anything. Not satisfied? I've told you to call my agency, ask them about the latest issue of the 'Star' magazine, an agency wide magazine [maybe I'm in there???]. Want some names and numbers of martail artists in the area that know me Don? Cause Gosh Don, I want YOU to be satisfied.
In regards to my first post...read it again. My only mistake was the soke thing. Put it as Hi, I'm the founder of my system. I've been BLESSED with an extensive background...yeah saying I've been blessed...how cocky of me
Uh Don, I have had 30 years of training, I've worn a uniform for two decades, I have had the opportunity and BLESSINGS to train with some really big people cause of my career. And offering to share anything I could with anyone else interested...how DARE I! Should keep it all to myself I suppose :shrug: And then ending it with happy to be here and I wanna LEARN from others as well..yeah I can see you having a major problem with that as well, imagine wanting to come in here and learn stuff. If you all don't like me, or what I have to say then activate the little ignore button and you won't have to worry about it. But don't say I haven't 'offered' anything...cause I have, and it's posted with dates and times. Easy matter to cut n paste all of your ill chosen and misleading comments. OR you can stop acting like Robert's peanut gallery and let it die. Concentrate on training and learning and teaching. What a novel concept. Maybe someone should come up with a website where people can go to and do just that....oh wait...they have.
:asian:
OP
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2002
- Messages
- 1,514
- Reaction score
- 54
- Thread Starter
- #17
A.R.K.,
Let me warn you now -- taking on Don isn't going to go well for you. I've seen him win arguments with much tougher opponents.
Let me warn you now -- taking on Don isn't going to go well for you. I've seen him win arguments with much tougher opponents.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Don and Phil -
Am I correct in assuming that the person referred to by Phil is someone from our collective E-budo background? That was the sense that I got from reading Phil's posts here... Which leads me to -
ARK -
It ain't all about you, man... You jump into every possible thread dealing with the questionability of a person's curriculum vitae, and automatically expect that any comments made, especially those made by RyuShiKan, are about you. They aren't. I wouldn't expect you to know the background of things that have gone on on other boards (wherefrom Don and Phil and Robert all know each other, and where I first became acquainted with Phil and Robert myself), so I'll cut you some slack here. But on other threads, though the theme may have sounded as if it applied to you, and perhaps the idea for the thread was generated from interaction with you and DAC, I didn't necessarily see them as being "about" you. Though that didn't stop either you or DAC from chiming in to bring the focus back in on your troubled relationship with RyuShiKan...
If you want to drop sabres, then drop 'em and don't pick 'em back up again... You have the whole Christian thing going on in your sigline, so live up to it, turn the other cheek, and walk the hell away... If you feel that RyuShiKan is attacking you at every turn, then don't respond to what you feel is baiting. Walk away. Ignore it. If it really is an attack by RyuShiKan, then others will feel the same and see it for what it is... If it really isn't an attack on you, then it will be left for what it is... Either way, what I see is you and DAC being overly sensitive on every thread dealing with questionable training, backgrounds, behavior, etc., and hijacking the thread to address your own agenda and issues.
Let it go.
Back on topic -
One of the issues I have, the main one that fuels my fire for rooting out frauds, stems from the experience I have with one instructor I knew in the past...
He claimed to teach all manner of qigong for healing (he didn't know that much). He claimed to be certified in herbology (he took a class, and was certified in a state, just not the state he resided in - one that requires an MD to allow you to prescribe anything for anyone for any reason). He had several students that bought his line of crap, hook, line and sinker. One ended up dying because of it...
It's one thing to teach $h*tty self-defense and have your students get their butts handed to them by the schoolyard bully. It's one thing to teach garbage fighting skills and have your students get their butts handed to them in the local tournament. It is another thing entirely to allow your own personal ego to damage, endanger, or destroy the life of another person. For this reason, and this reason alone, whenever I run into someone that looks and sounds like their ducks aren't in a row, I get involved...
"To see the right thing, and fail to do it, is to want of courage."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Am I correct in assuming that the person referred to by Phil is someone from our collective E-budo background? That was the sense that I got from reading Phil's posts here... Which leads me to -
ARK -
It ain't all about you, man... You jump into every possible thread dealing with the questionability of a person's curriculum vitae, and automatically expect that any comments made, especially those made by RyuShiKan, are about you. They aren't. I wouldn't expect you to know the background of things that have gone on on other boards (wherefrom Don and Phil and Robert all know each other, and where I first became acquainted with Phil and Robert myself), so I'll cut you some slack here. But on other threads, though the theme may have sounded as if it applied to you, and perhaps the idea for the thread was generated from interaction with you and DAC, I didn't necessarily see them as being "about" you. Though that didn't stop either you or DAC from chiming in to bring the focus back in on your troubled relationship with RyuShiKan...
If you want to drop sabres, then drop 'em and don't pick 'em back up again... You have the whole Christian thing going on in your sigline, so live up to it, turn the other cheek, and walk the hell away... If you feel that RyuShiKan is attacking you at every turn, then don't respond to what you feel is baiting. Walk away. Ignore it. If it really is an attack by RyuShiKan, then others will feel the same and see it for what it is... If it really isn't an attack on you, then it will be left for what it is... Either way, what I see is you and DAC being overly sensitive on every thread dealing with questionable training, backgrounds, behavior, etc., and hijacking the thread to address your own agenda and issues.
Let it go.
Back on topic -
One of the issues I have, the main one that fuels my fire for rooting out frauds, stems from the experience I have with one instructor I knew in the past...
He claimed to teach all manner of qigong for healing (he didn't know that much). He claimed to be certified in herbology (he took a class, and was certified in a state, just not the state he resided in - one that requires an MD to allow you to prescribe anything for anyone for any reason). He had several students that bought his line of crap, hook, line and sinker. One ended up dying because of it...
It's one thing to teach $h*tty self-defense and have your students get their butts handed to them by the schoolyard bully. It's one thing to teach garbage fighting skills and have your students get their butts handed to them in the local tournament. It is another thing entirely to allow your own personal ego to damage, endanger, or destroy the life of another person. For this reason, and this reason alone, whenever I run into someone that looks and sounds like their ducks aren't in a row, I get involved...
"To see the right thing, and fail to do it, is to want of courage."
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
A
A.R.K.
Guest
Alright Matt, I'll go with you on this. I will say however, that Robert's continued comments regarding 'issues' bear scrutiny on my part. You know what I'm talking about.
And his nasty grams to my email need to cease, like NOW.
Any further nonsense on his part will indeed expose him further.
I will let the matter be a dead issue. Whether it remains that way...
Peace...and thanks.
:asian:
And his nasty grams to my email need to cease, like NOW.
Any further nonsense on his part will indeed expose him further.
I will let the matter be a dead issue. Whether it remains that way...
Peace...and thanks.
:asian:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
It sure does seem to be about winning, since you jump into every thread dealing with certain issues and construe it to be about you and your relationship with RyuShiKan... It is possible to discuss certain things and actually not have them be about your particular situation.
They could have rested... If you and DAC didn't relentlessly bring your own issues back into the spotlight! Everything related to bad martial arts, questionable claims, bogus certification, etc., does not relate to your style and school. Period.
Then live by your own sayings - If you come out and say something about RyuShiKan or "his camp" that is inflammatory or would cause someone to be offended, expect they will retaliate in turn... That is what causes this to continue.
Public forum. Stuff gets posted. You can't stop it, the mods could if they felt it failed the tests of suitability on the board. But, once more for repetition's sake, all the threads, "innuendos," and other comments aren't all about you...
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
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