Thoughts on the "what martial art should I take for self-defense" question

[skribs]

What is this test you are comparing it too?

That's the thing. It's not just one. It's a combination of what I've experienced in class when I do these techniques, what I've experienced when I've had them done on me. Anecdotal evidence in the form of videos and discussions.

 

[dvcochran]

MMA is a competitive setting that allows striking grappling and ground work.

Rather than it really being a MMA vs TMA thing that you guys are trying to set up.

I just use the distinction because otherwise we get in to a 20 page semantic argument.

But I could just as easily say it has to work consistently under a bunch of conditions.

With fighting or self defence. Striking, grappling and ground work is pretty good.

If we say added weapons. It would be better. And we can, there are hema, dog brothers and gun games. And when we do. We don't suddenly see wrist locks and arm bars.

We see MMA with additional situational elements. So the order of priorities changes.

But not only do we have consistency within MMA we get consistency across platforms.

And from there we have a framework that is based in evidence that we can work with if we wanted results based self defense.

Half the arguments here are hoodoo nonscence.

That is not at all my question. I am simply saying there are a Lot of things you see as MMA that many others will see as TMA, on the mat or in the ring. I did not mention weapons or HEMA, for simplicity's sake let's leave them out of the discussion.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Ok, so if I spend a bunch of time on Youtube and find events that are TMA to me, whether it is standing or on the ground, what is going to keep you from just claiming it is MMA? Are only standing punches and kicks TMA in your opinion? That is just not true. That immediately unbalances the equation because of bias.

Just going to back drop bear in part there. Some things you might not find any evidence of them working in the modern world. Really should be taken cas eby case basis. In other words technique by technique.


Also, probbly dont have the full story here. The police does have some **** in some places. I swear i saw a article somewhere about how U.S police agencies have employed unarmed teachers who absically know nothing down to the employer not knowing much on the subject. Trainign standards and cot=ntent vary greatly as well. Basically miltiary, police and civilian sources are not exempt from fallacies going on, luck and bias's. All cases should be viewed case by case as the amount of variables that go into making something work are quite high.

Somone who is stronger than average could probbly get away with a lot of brute force methodly against somone who is weaker than average for example.


Also first rule for this: Anecdotal evidence is basically useless. Unless a large amount of people back up what was said that have no vested intrest in it. but then you should still be dubious of anecdotal evidence. As in the modern day if soemthing works you should be able to find some video or pictoral evidence of it. (especially in modern MEDC's)

Mixed reply to muiltiple points here.




and because this is semi scentific, i got up to a 5th draft on that science thread i was on about, struggling with how to start it and forgot about it, i might try another draft of it later if i dont forget.

 

[Tez3]

Like you might be able to bring yourself to do it, but you wouldnt have had any experience or means to devolope a coping mechnism while doing it if you go in blind.

Rage and adrenaline can easily over rule your intelligence and your rational thoughts so it's not always a case of 'bringing yourself to do it'. Alcohol can overcome any inhibitions which is why fighting a drunk or when drunk can be dangerous. I'm talking about situations when your loved ones are in danger and you react without thinking, you simply don't think which can be a problem in itself. In many situations people act without thinking, in war and peacetime alike.



On the other subject, MMA is TMA, just more of them all in the same fight.

 

[dvcochran]

In many situations people act without thinking, in war and peacetime alike.

I would certainly agree that many people react without rational thinking in stressful situations.

 

[oftheherd1]

Well, if it worked in pride and early UFC, it probbly would outside the rule sets. (given the first UFC's rules were basically none barring permenent incapcitation rules ie eye pokes and throat shots) And pride kept headbutts and stomps as far as i know when UFC got rid of them. Last i know UFC brought out pride, but there arent that many rules in UFC.


Also, there really isnt a good way to train a lot of this, like there wasnt before simunitions and laser systems cropped up for firearms. (and then they have their issues as does everything) And pure experience leads survivour bias and the other person matters as much as you. Its just really hard to pin all of this down into good training standards without some form of expereince bloc behind it. Like the police would have constant case reports coming back that would alter their training and usually people die, or something goes terribly wrong before something is picked up. (thats the trend in U.S police firearm tactics anyway) We can all agree police and military case reports arent going to be 100% useful for civilians and what civilians need for self defence as nether the police or military can run away from situations and most situations you should have ran away from.


And we can all agree we live in a society that violence is taboo in and that violent crimes are going down in. (at least on the grand sceme of things)

Competition is never the end all be all in my eyes, but its one of the only really pressure testing fromats you can do thats live and isnt going to put your life at risk. (**** does happen, but its not like the other combatant is there to kill you, just win the match) if you stick with sparring in house you get issues like learning the habits of the other person and using that to your advantage when you wont have that if you were dealing with a stranger. Some trends and things that dont work against a trained person in a 1:1 fight, could against a untrained oned so fourth.


And lets be honest here, if you can carry weapons for self defence in your area, do so. Thats the ultimate form of self defence. It also negates some arguing here as it doesnt really matter how you hold a weapon so long as you hit your enemy without them hitting you. Obviously while not hitting innocent bistanders. (incoming, you need to go into a isolese shooting stance, or weaver. Or need to hold your knife in XYZ position, none of that really matters)

@Rat how many really dangerous or potentially deadly situations have you been in and/or trained for? You make is sound like you have a lot of experience at training to survive such things.

 

[Headhunter]

You should try one of these
Best 7 types of martial arts:
1. Kickboxing
2. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu
3. Krav Maga
4. Karate
6. Judo
5. Aikido
7- Taekwondo
form more information about this martial arts this article: Best 7 types of martial arts

Best for what?

weight loss?
Self defence?
Competition fighting?
Strength building?
Relaxation?
Striking?
Grappling?
Weapon fighting?

 

[drop bear]

@Rat how many really dangerous or potentially deadly situations have you been in and/or trained for? You make is sound like you have a lot of experience at training to survive such things.

Well the standard for instruction in self defense is zero.

So I am not sure what the bar should really be on a comment.

 

[Gweilo]

@Rat how many really dangerous or potentially deadly situations have you been in and/or trained for? You make is sound like you have a lot of experience at training to survive such things.

I think rats post is bob on, its a shame its not experience talking

 

[Steve]

Best for what?

weight loss?

Tae Bo or cardio kickboxing, but only if you stay with it.

Self defence?

LOL. Hard to say. Are we talking about self defense orientation, self defense emphasis, defense against a group of cops who are strangling you, gang member defense, barfight defense, defense against ninja in a dark alley, or defense against the dark arts?

Competition fighting?

Dumb question, because the competition will dictate the style.

Strength building?

I'm going to go with Tae Bo again.

Relaxation?

Massage or Tai Chi

Striking?

Ooh, so many good ones. Can we start with what it ain't?

Grappling?

See above.

Weapon fighting?

Which weapon?

 

[Gweilo]

Dumb question, because the competition will dictate the style.
This I agree with, whole heartedly
In restrictive competition

 

[drop bear]

I think rats post is bob on, its a shame its not experience talking

The point is it doesn't have to be.

You can externally mesure performance. Self defense guys just really don't want you to.

 

[Gweilo]

The point is it doesn't have to be.

You can externally mesure performance. Self defense guys just really don't want you to.

Now Im confused with you, before we have talked about pressure testing skill, making sure the foundations of what we do, is prevelant to what is claimed in the teaching we receive from our instructors. In previous conversation Rat has claimed he has little or no training in ma, infact, he is undecided in his training path (appologys if this has changed), how can you externally measure performance, with no experience, or pressure testing

 

[Headhunter]

Now Im confused with you, before we have talked about pressure testing skill, making sure the foundations of what we do, is prevelant to what is claimed in the teaching we receive from our instructors. In previous conversation Rat has claimed he has little or no training in ma, infact, he is undecided in his training path (appologys if this has changed), how can you externally measure performance, with no experience, or pressure testing

I very much doubt it has changed

 

[drop bear]

Now Im confused with you, before we have talked about pressure testing skill, making sure the foundations of what we do, is prevelant to what is claimed in the teaching we receive from our instructors. In previous conversation Rat has claimed he has little or no training in ma, infact, he is undecided in his training path (appologys if this has changed), how can you externally measure performance, with no experience, or pressure testing

In the same way Richard Dawkins can mesure the performance of dowsing without ever having been a dowser.

 

[Gweilo]

In the same way Richard Dawkins can mesure the performance of dowsing without ever having been a dowser.

Are you smoking something

 

[drop bear]

Are you smoking something

It is a pretty wild idea that someone could make a claim and then be able to demonstrate that claim on demand under laboratory conditions.

 

[Gweilo]

Ok watched the Youtube video, but it confirms other conversation, you will only know if you experiment.
Something I agree with

 

[Gweilo]

It is a pretty wild idea that someone could make a claim and then be able to demonstrate that claim on demand under laboratory conditions.

Is there a underlying point to this comment

 

[Gweilo]

Would you like to meet up, and (friendly) test our theories against each other?