Thoughts on a kata

[twendkata71]

After watching a demonstration of Gankaku sho this morning, I realized that this kata is probably the Chinto kata of Matsubayashi Shorin ryu that Kanazawa Hanshi learned while continueing his studies fo his Okinawan roots of karate. He was actually shunned by many in the JKA at the time for going to Okinawa to study the older forms of Okinawan karate. His Gankaku sho looks very similar to the Chinto kata learned in Matsubayashi, with of course the deeper stances and changed movements to make it "More Shotokan". He also did this with Seipai, Suparimpei, and Seienchin(changing the kata and names to make them Shotokan-or his type of shotokan if you will). The JKA didn't like this at all. so, I am sure this had something to do with his slit with the JKA and creating the SKIF.
What do you all think? Sound viable??

 

[Grenadier]

Our system of Karate (basically a hybrid of Wado Ryu and Shotokan), practices kata Chinto at the nidan level, and it is very similar to Gankaku, with only a few differences. It is, however, significantly different from various Okinawan versions of Chinto that I've seen.

Your guess is probably as good of a guess as any. SKIF tends to be more open to outside systems' influences than the JKA, and that's most certainly a reflection of its founder's willingness to incorporate outside material.

Kanazawa Kancho's a very humble, unassuming guy, and from what I understand, doesn't want to talk anything bad about the JKA, even though he didn't exactly leave under good terms.

Anyways, the man has 2 million+ people in his SKIF organization worldwide, so whatever he decides to do with the names, or whatever he wants to include in his course of studies is perfectly fine be me.

 

[Jin Gang]

Yes, you are correct, that is a well known fact about gankaku. It is the same as chinto of other shorin ryu branches, including matsubayashi. Almost everything in shotokan has been given a different, more Japanese name. And almost every kata has differences from the Okinawan versions...some are just cosmetic, and some are more fundamental. Of course, the different branches of shorin ryu have differences in their kata as well, just not as big as the changes that happened on the mainland.

From what I've read, chinto/gankaku is one of the original 15 kata that Funakoshi taught.

The original fifteen:
Pinan 1-5 (Heian)
Naihanchi 1-3 (Naifanchi, Tekki)
Kushanku (Kanku)
Passai (Bassai)
Seisan (Hangetsu)
Wanshu (Enpi)
Chinto (Gankaku)
Jitte
Jion

I got this from an article here: http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=220

I don't know if the particular teacher you are speaking of may have also learned an Okinawan version of the kata, and changed the way he performed it accordingly. But it certainly has been a part of shotokan from the beginning (of course in the beginning, it probably looked a lot more like the other Okinawan versions). I don't know about the naha te kata you mentioned or when they may have become "shotokanized" or by whom.

I actually practice matsubayashi ryu, I'm well familiar with chinto (it's one of my favorite kata)

 

[twendkata71]

I know that many years ago, Kanazawa Hanshi went to Okinawa, studied with several masters, including masters of Uechi ryu,shorin ryu and perhaps goju ryu. He incorporated several of the kata into his Shotokan curriculum and changing aspects and names to make them more of the shotokan dynamic.
Chinto(shorin ryu version)-Gankaku sho
Suparempei-Hyakuhachi ho
Seipai- I believe he kept the name and only made slight changes.
nijuhachi ho- looks to be a combination of Kururunfa and Nipaipo.

 

[dwaynekrieger]

As I understand it Nijuhachiho is the Nipai kata from To'on-ryu system that was developed from Kyoda Juhatsu. He was a student of Kanryo Higashionna and contemporary to Miyagi and Gokenki. Nipai is from the Gokenki lineage so I think Juhatsu got the kata from him. I have seen both and I am pretty sure that is where Kanazawa got Nijuhachiho from.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Dwayne,

You suggested - Nijuhachiho is the Nipai kata from To'on-ryu system

I checked with Mario Mckenna, the only person teaching Tou'on Ryu outside of Japan, in Canada, and the Nijuhachiho isn't related to Nipai.

I suspect it has other sources, such as from shito-ryu... more like a personal adaption on the crane theme.

 

[dwaynekrieger]

Hi Victor,

Good to hear from you. Then
i stand corrected. Mario McKenna would certainly know in this matter. It is still from the Gokenki Nipai, which I thought was transmitted to To'on-ryu and Kingai-ryu. I guess Gokenki's version was only tranmitted to Shinpo Matayohi? I really don't know now!

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Dwayne,

I'm afraid all of the Crane kata have so mutated and multiplied it is difficult to source many of them, especially as:

1. We have no prime source documentation of what they were.
and
2. The chinese 'source' systems seem to have mutated as frequently as the Okinawan ones.

Why, where really hardly matters. If one can do it well, if one can integrate the techniques into their practice and really drop people with them, or if they can really develop their energy potential with the form's practice and in turn shape those developed energies into their other applications, why the source really doesn't matter.

Tou'on (which I don't practice) has it's own unique sources. Likewise Matayoshi's stududies (and students) have their own unique practices. It turns out one of Matayoshi's students is also an acquaintence and lives close, and I also don't practice his arts either.

Personally I find enough crane in my 30 years of tai chi practice, but from another friend my students study a little dragon (somewhat appropriate for an Isshinryu stylist after all) and if it comes to it do you want to bring a crane to a dragon fight <GRIN>.

After all if it takes more than one movement flow of whatever we do, we probably need to spend more time training.............