Those Hidden Kicks

[Steel Tiger]

As many of you may have noticed, I have recently been thoroughly examining the most fundamental form in the style of bagua I study and teach. I have been noticing some things that I hadn't noticed before and focussing on somethings I already knew about.

In this form, Eight Thunders Serpent Palm, there are a number of instances in which the practitioner lifts one foot off the ground. This is not an uncommon action in CMA forms but my teacher gave me a new perspective on this motion. He has never described it as an avoidance of some low attack, even though it can clearly be used this way, rather he talks of hidden low kicks. Thus, wherever a foot is lifted there is a kick, usually to the knee or lower leg (we call these kicks Monkey kicks).


I have wondered if any other people have encountered this interpretation of this form element? What about in other arts - Karate, TKD, and the like?

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Dear Steel Tiger when my teacher taught anything involving lifting the leg he would make 2 comments: 1. the leg that is not being lifted should be sunk and rooted and 2. The leg lifted up is a general guideline for what ever possible means you need in that fight such as a kick, avoiding a kick, stepping away some how whatever. Hope that gives some food for thought.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In this form, Eight Thunders Serpent Palm, there are a number of instances in which the practitioner lifts one foot off the ground. This is not an uncommon action in CMA forms but my teacher gave me a new perspective on this motion. He has never described it as an avoidance of some low attack, even though it can clearly be used this way, rather he talks of hidden low kicks. Thus, wherever a foot is lifted there is a kick, usually to the knee or lower leg (we call these kicks Monkey kicks).

This is pretty standard for CMA it can also be used as a block or a block to an incoming low kick, either to stop from being hit or basically kick the other guys leg as he tries to kick you.

General CMA way of looking at it "a kick is not just a kick and a punch is just not a punch"

 

[Steel Tiger]

Dear Steel Tiger when my teacher taught anything involving lifting the leg he would make 2 comments: 1. the leg that is not being lifted should be sunk and rooted and 2. The leg lifted up is a general guideline for what ever possible means you need in that fight such as a kick, avoiding a kick, stepping away some how whatever. Hope that gives some food for thought.

This is pretty standard for CMA it can also be used as a block or a block to an incoming low kick, either to stop from being hit or basically kick the other guys leg as he tries to kick you.

General CMA way of looking at it "a kick is not just a kick and a punch is just not a punch"

I have always been struck by the versatility in CMA. It becomes more apparent to me in discussions of the effectiveness of different arts when you don't hear from that many CMA guys. Maybe its because, like me, they tend to sit there thinking "yeah, my art's got that in it."

The form I mentioned has these foot techniques and hand techniques and qinna and throws and counters. It is very versatile. I guess it is important to view every element of a form in terms of attack and defence.

By the way, nice to hear from you again Xue.

 

[shifu]

Stell Tiger,

In our White Crane the stepping motion is like a crane walking in a marsh with the foot being raised throughout the step. It function is similar to what you described ... as a leg block, avoidance or as a hidden kick (knee chamber for a kick).

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have always been struck by the versatility in CMA. It becomes more apparent to me in discussions of the effectiveness of different arts when you don't hear from that many CMA guys. Maybe its because, like me, they tend to sit there thinking "yeah, my art's got that in it."

The form I mentioned has these foot techniques and hand techniques and qinna and throws and counters. It is very versatile. I guess it is important to view every element of a form in terms of attack and defence.

.

Also if the fist doesen't work it becomes an elbow or a back fist or.....
aaaa You know this already, your a bagua guy.

Same for kicks, also when I was training Xingyi there are a lot of hidden kicks, Just about every step can be a kick to someones knee.

By the way, nice to hear from you again Xue.

Thanks

 

[Steel Tiger]

Stell Tiger,

In our White Crane the stepping motion is like a crane walking in a marsh with the foot being raised throughout the step. It function is similar to what you described ... as a leg block, avoidance or as a hidden kick (knee chamber for a kick).

Same for kicks, also when I was training Xingyi there are a lot of hidden kicks, Just about every step can be a kick to someones knee.

Now that is something I didn't know about either style. But, when you point it out, I am beginning to see them when I look at the forms.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hebei Style Xingyiquan Wuxing is down right nasty with hidden kicks and qinna apps. :EG:

The hidden kicks are considered kicks but they are more akin to stepping on someone’s knee in my limited experience with it.

I imagine the other styles of Xingyi are equally nasty but I did not train those so I don’t really know.

DAMN I miss xingyi, but that's another story.

 

[kidswarrior]

I have always been struck by the versatility in CMA. It becomes more apparent to me in discussions of the effectiveness of different arts when you don't hear from that many CMA guys. Maybe its because, like me, they tend to sit there thinking "yeah, my art's got that in it."

Yeah, I find myself doing this a lot. Examples:

The rule of thumb I've been left with after studying a CMA, a Korean art, and Kempo, is that the foot can slide (fast, but with fewer options), or lift (slower, because the lift is actually a separate move from a kick or block, which would be the second movement). So, if my foot comes up, it's either a block, kick (your monkey kick I call a leopard kick because it's low and fast, and virtually untelegraphed--although I probably look more like a monkey when executing it), or a step to change direction or seriously shift body weight or placement.

The form I mentioned has these foot techniques and hand techniques and qinna and throws and counters. It is very versatile. I guess it is important to view every element of a form in terms of attack and defence.

Again, yeah, I've mostly gained this perspective from the current work in 'rediscovering' bunkai, e.g. Bill Burgar, Kane & Wilder, Iain Abernethy, Gennosuke Higaki, et. al.

By the way, nice to hear from you again Xue.

Boy, ain't that the truth.

 

[newtothe dark]

In some styles they also use a stepping motion like stepping over a box to step/stomp on the foot or a swinging motion like kicking a soccer ball (using the inner arch area to the shin) One of my teachers used to say if you have their eyes (have them focused on you head) then these kicks will be like a shadow. Just something from my training in fact brought back some very happy memories. Hope its of some use.

 

[Steel Tiger]

In some styles they also use a stepping motion like stepping over a box to step/stomp on the foot or a swinging motion like kicking a soccer ball (using the inner arch area to the shin) One of my teachers used to say if you have their eyes (have them focused on you head) then these kicks will be like a shadow. Just something from my training in fact brought back some very happy memories. Hope its of some use.

Ah! The No Shadow Kick.

 

[count]

In my experience, when one talks about hidden kicks, it is because the kicks are hidden from your opponent through another technique. Not secretly held, placeholders in the forms.

I don't believe one can learn to kick without actually kicking something.

OK, maybe forms are designed to give you options to think about. But than, I don't believe forms are a training method either.

Food for thought.

 

[kidswarrior]

In some styles they also use a stepping motion like stepping over a box to step/stomp on the foot or a swinging motion like kicking a soccer ball (using the inner arch area to the shin) One of my teachers used to say if you have their eyes (have them focused on you head) then these kicks will be like a shadow. Just something from my training in fact brought back some very happy memories. Hope its of some use.

Good points. Thanks for jogging my memory about these apps.

Also if the fist doesen't work it becomes an elbow or a back fist or.....
aaaa You know this already, your a bagua guy.

Same for kicks....

After about the third reading (I'm slooooow ), XS's post conjured up something in the old memory bank. Raising the knee (called many things in different arts) in preparation for a full kick, can easily be adapted to a simple but effective kick with the knee--especially good when applied to the opponent's thigh.

 

[Xue Sheng]

After about the third reading (I'm slooooow ), XS's post conjured up something in the old memory bank. Raising the knee (called many things in different arts) in preparation for a full kick, can easily be adapted to a simple but effective kick with the knee--especially good when applied to the opponent's thigh.

It makes a nice block too as well as a setup for a sweep.

I'm not all too quick either... I just remembered the sweep

 

[kidswarrior]

It makes a nice block too as well as a setup for a sweep.

I'm not all too quick either... I just remembered the sweep

Yeah, the block is standard fare in my system, but a sweep...hmmm. Good stuff. And maybe (I'm not a judoka, so I'm guessing), a leg up on that reverse hip throw, such as This-Woman-Scares-Me uses so devastatingly and often?

 

[seasoned]

Stell Tiger,

In our White Crane the stepping motion is like a crane walking in a marsh with the foot being raised throughout the step. It function is similar to what you described ... as a leg block, avoidance or as a hidden kick (knee chamber for a kick).

I have often used the leg lift as a blocking technique and it has served me well. Other comments are very well taken.