The Theory and Practice of Forms Breakdown

Sensei Mike

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Let's look at another example from a less common Shorin Ryu kata called Chintei. This is pretty much restricted to Shito Ryu and some branches of Shotokan. It is believed to have come down through Itosu.
The Shotokan version is available at : (http://www.ctr.usf.edu/shotokan/kata.html)

In a stationary position the hands come to the center, in stacked fists, slightly separated, right fist on top palm down, left fist on the bottom, palm up. You look to the right and do a hammer fist strike to your right that loops up, then down, and ends at shoulder height. Then the fist is pulled back in and you reverse the hands and do a mirror image with a turn of the head to the left, then a left hammerfist, followed by a draw of the hand back. Then you look to the front, and bring your left foot straight out to the front and pivot 90 degrees to your right (clockwise) in a horse stance (or wide Naihanchi dachi, or Shiko dachi) and the hands raise up to the front palms out, elbows bent, hands in front of your forehead. They can pull to chamber first.)

Try this with the unidirectional approach. An attacker to your right, then an attacker to your left. Then an attacker to your right, (but you have to step out with your left to engage him.) There is simply no good bunkai, and no ikken hisatsu bunkai, without resorting to oyo bunkai by adding something that is not there. I have shown to several Shotokan schools a simple interpretation that is immensely useful. (One ISKF Nidan who has frequented my dojo showed this to Teruyuki Okazaki and he told me it was well received. But this was no surprise to me because the Shotokan taught by Okazaki is greatly lacking in bunkai. See 24fightingchickens.com for criticism of Shotokan's near complete historical avoidance of good bunkai, or see (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/reviews/okazaki.html) for a criticism of Okazaki's recent text.)

I am not convinced that kata was designed so that the direction you look is where the attacker is. (Remember my disclaimer above about this being a conjecture on my part.) It is my deeply held belief that looking in a particular direction was a simple device employed across Okinawan kata, to help hide what a movement means. I will have more analysis on this in a later post. But this case of the opening of Chintei, as well as the opening Pinan Yondan, above, is very illustrative.

I want to use kata to develop good defenses against high probability, risky (to me) attacks. What are they. Well there are probably many. But I would say the highest probability attack by a larger attacker is a right strike the head. And I would say the second would be a rapid combination of left jab, right strike, or perhaps just a left strike. I could well be wrong. I have no evidence to back this up. I believe that right handed attackers are more likely to throw right handed punches. And against a shorter, lighter opponent, the head is a compelling target. if one is a lot bigger. My assumption that the right is the highest probability attack may be wrong, but not by much. Those that train in boxing learn this. Those that train in Muay Thai learn this. I use the word risky to define the immediate problem. There are many attacks that use grabs. But for those with extensive grappling experience, many simple grabs (no kick/strike) represent not an attack, but an opportunity. A grab/strike combination is a pretty risky (to the defender) attack, but it uses a grab which is still an opportunity. A head butt especially combined with a knee groin (and often followed by further headbutts) is a very risky and devastating attack. But I think it has lower probability than a right strike. Any number of kicks to the groin are risky, but many kicks to the abdomen less risky than strikes to the head. Moreover, reasonably effective strikes (translation, by a much bigger opponent) are generally more natural (take less training) than good kicks, and because in karate, we train so much to defend against kicks.

So we start with a right strike to the head as high probability and risky and a left jab/right strike as being pretty high probability and very risky (two blows being more damaging than one). So this is something we need to defend against. Let's see what the opening of Chinte has to offer. First, the arms are going to practice the kata in several ways. Slow, for form, slow with tension for power, and very very fast, merging the whole opening into a seemless whole. One, Two, then step. All with absolutely no delay.

In a number of Kung fu systems (I have seen it in two Shoalin, as well as in Hung Gar and a derivative) there is a common training exercise called continuous hands. The hands circle in mirror images in front. Inside to outside, and outside to inside, in rapid succession. For the Kung Fu T.V show aficionados, this was part of the beginning of every show with one of the old masters in the monastery doing this. In one Shoalin system I trained in, we would do this for a minimum five minutes in each direction, often quite longer. In a deep horse stance, the longer periods, (once 10 minutes each way) seemed never anything shorter than an eternity. 10 minutes gets you around 1000 combinations (both arms circle). Just to put this in perspective, if you practice this for a mere 10 minutes every day for three years and you will have done this combination a million times. The Chinte kata incorporates this basic Chinese pattern.

Before describing the defense, we need to fully understand the attack. When being struck, the attacker's arm has to be able to reach past the front of your head. It has to be able to make contact and drive through, at least slightly. An attacker wants to do damage. He wants to make contact. He doesn't want to put everything into an attack and then not reach, or have you tilt your head back a half inch to evade the jab. The point is the distance gets closed on an attack. This assumption is important for this technique as I describe below.

Now, when the circular right arm movement blocks the left strike it wraps it, pinning it to your right side. That is why it is a circle. Up/out to block, down/in to trap. The right arm wraps and then pulls in to your own center to complete the trap. If the opponent's strike doesn't reach your head, then you may not be able to trap it to your side, as his arm might not reach your torso. Please note that the block to the right should use a modest rotation of the torso to the right so you don't block completely with the arms. The big sweep of the arm allows you to block more with your upper arm than your forearm. But you can't rotate to much because then the second block won't be fast enough.

The mirror image works for the right hand. This block is not launched after the first completes. It is launched while the first one is in motion. The more commitment to the initial jab, the longer the delay. The more the jab is a feint, the shorter the delay. You need to be prepared for both. When you are done, both arms are trapped. A digression on stance. This offensive combination is likely with the left foot forward. You, the defender, start out as usual in a natural stance with feet equidistant. Your left foot now steps outside his forward (left foot) and pivot hard to the right into a horse stance/shikodachi. Your butt, pivoting hard forward, rotates hard against the outside of his left thigh. Down he goes.

Now imagine that you missed the second trap. You proceed the same. In the kata as soon as you plant, your right foot in the forward stance, your hands come up, palms out, above your head. You can either use the crook of your elbow to catch his neck for this takedown, or you can bring the elbow out a tad early and strike his neck on the pivot. Both also bring him down. In fact, the takedown works even if you can't pin the left arm either. (In which case, I advise the crook of the arm takedown.)

These opening sequences to Pinan Yondan and Chintei, are but two of a vast number of obvious examples of what I consider the "fallacy of the turn to the attacker" approach to karate interpretation. This "turn to the attacker" approach, is incredibly widespread, but so limiting in directions that don't have much in the way of response. It forces you to go outside the sequential movements to build effective self-defense. But the examples above show that you don't have to go outside the movements to have great applications. Both of these openings used three sequential directions (side, side front) as a very effective combination against two very high probability attacks. They both included takedowns. One had two big side to side pivots with two fast steps forward. One hand two very minor side to side pivots with just one step forward. One was against a more straightforward attack (a single strike) and therefore had a lot of complexity in using multiple counters and locks before finishing and taking to the ground. The second, in response to a barrage, had much more limited options, but is designed in much the same way. Where possible, trap the attacking arm. It is straight, and close and therefore attacks to the elbow are very effective.

So the two questions remain. If the attacker isn't necessarily in the direction you turn, then where is he? WAnd second, if, in general, your turn is not to face an attacker, then what the heck are turns for anyway? These are complicated questions, to be dealt with on a future post.
 
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fissure

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Mike, I've read some of your posts and have seen the banter between youreslf and others here.I'm not going to chime in on applications and such. It is my understanding that there is no concrete application "law" in regaurd to kata/poomse.As such all application have merit.However, some of the apps. I have seen seem a little far fetched to me.Kind of a round app. in a square kata!
I have to say that when I see a post as long as some of yours it tends to make me scroll down rather quickly!I know you are trying to get complex ideas across in them, but still they tend to be a little off putting.
Just one man's opinion!:EG:
 
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fissure

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RyuShiKan, many things have changed even in the couple decades of my own experience.I miss walking into the dojo and seeing a dozen or so skilled black belts all of whom were willing to push themselves and each other to the breaking point.We would walk out of training dripping with sweat and covered in lumps and bruises, very few wish to trian like this anymore:(
 
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Matt Stone

Matt Stone

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Originally posted by fissure

RyuShiKan, many things have changed even in the couple decades of my own experience.I miss walking into the dojo and seeing a dozen or so skilled black belts all of whom were willing to push themselves and each other to the breaking point.We would walk out of training dripping with sweat and covered in lumps and bruises, very few wish to trian like this anymore:(

Was training last weekend, and after getting hit in some very painful spots, I would hop around in agony for a few moments and then step back up to say "do it again."

Either I am a dedicated martial artist or a sadist/masochist. Not sure which yet...

Gambarimasu.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by fissure

I have to say that when I see a post as long as some of yours it tends to make me scroll down rather quickly!I know you are trying to get complex ideas across in them, but still they tend to be a little off putting.

I do the same thing. Mike, you missed your calling...............you should write stereo instillation instructions. ;)

Originally posted by fissure

...... It is my understanding that there is no concrete application "law" in regaurd to kata/poomse.

This is kind of what I have been saying since the start, sometimes one way to discover applications works and sometimes another......case by case.


Originally posted by fissure

...........I miss walking into the dojo and seeing a dozen or so skilled black belts all of whom were willing to push themselves and each other to the breaking point.We would walk out of training dripping with sweat and covered in lumps and bruises, very few wish to trian like this anymore:(

We still do this kind of "shugyo" (austere training) every class........and then go get a couple beers. :D


Originally posted by Yiliquan1


Either I am a dedicated martial artist or a sadist/masochist. Not sure which yet...

Oh I am sure..........your both.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by arnisador

You wrote (quoting a reference work):


I have seen examples of the other cases you mentioned but cannot think of an example of this--could you suggest one?


I have tried to think of some good examples that might be common knowledge or that I wouldn't have to write out several boring pages of descriptions just to make my point but haven't had much luck.

The idea of techniques being represented backwards in the can be seen in several situations.
If you see a closed fist going out but it doesn't really seem like a punch then it might not be. It might be the opposite.....it could mean grabbing and pulling in.
Sometimes the foot work might be reversed..............so instead of stepping into something you are step out of it or stepping back.


The best advice I can give is to play around with different parts of the kata and use one or all of the methods I mentioned before and see what happens.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Sensei Mike

.......... I have shown to several Shotokan schools a simple interpretation that is immensely useful. (One ISKF Nidan who has frequented my dojo showed this to Teruyuki Okazaki and he told me it was well received. But this was no surprise to me because the Shotokan taught by Okazaki is greatly lacking in bunkai. See 24fightingchickens.com for criticism of Shotokan's near complete historical avoidance of good bunkai, or see (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/shotokan/reviews/okazaki.html) for a criticism of Okazaki's recent text.)

I agree with Rob Remond and his assessments of the JKA.
I used to have several fairly high ranking Shotokan/JKA and Shotokai students in my dojo, 4thdan and 6th dan respectively.
The 6th dan, while training with me, denied he had ever trained before, however I happened to stumble across his dojo by accident one evening while he was teaching class. I watched a bit before he noticed me, and when he finally did I stepped right up on the dojo floor and said: "look if your going to teach what I taught you at least teach it correctly".......and I then proceeded to teach the rest of his class that night. Needless to say he about dropped a load when he saw me.

I found the total lack of knowledge about bunkai in the JKF and JKA startling.......but then if all you do is concentrate on tippy tap sparring and kata "dancing" like they do it makes sense.
 
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RyuShiKan

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One aspect of that has not been mentioned but another vital aspect of bunkai is how the bunkai is applied. This doesn't mean what the interpretation is but how it is actually done.

Things that a good technique must have:

(I wrote these in no particular order by the way)

Strength

Balance

Awareness

Form

Footwork

Speed

Position

Timing

--------------------------------


Footwork, Speed, Position, Timing are the ones people seem to neglect when thinking of or showing bunkai and technique.

Footwork is key to body positioning.......ask any boxing coach about this and he will agree I am sure.

Speed= most demo mpegs and demos at seminars only show attacks done at "Taichi Speed" (some are done a "lamp post speed" i.e. standing still) and in turn the defensive techniques are done in the same slow fashion. Hell Taichi folks don't even practice techniques at Taichi form speed, the good ones don't anyway. They practice technique pretty realistically.

To become good you must try to work up to as realistic a timing as possible.
 

Kempojujutsu

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Recently I got a tape on Goju ryu. In the tape they do several kata's (Gekisai Dai-Ichi & Ni, Saifa, Seiyunchin, Shisochin) When they showed these kata's I notice the movements are more circular, their are more open hand movements. Is this typical for Naha Te kata's. Also it seemed the bunkai was easier to see in Naha Te kata's than Shuri Te kata's. Also do the Naha Te kata's have hidden applications like the Shuri Te kata's. Movements done reversed, backwards, etc.
Bob:asian:
 
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chufeng

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All kata have layered techniques...
The obvious ones are usually very basic and ineffective against another trained practitioner.
The "hidden" techniques are always more fun...

I think the only exception to this layering would be the kata that self-promoted masters create when they "invent" a new style...since they don't know what they are doing in the first place, they lose all the good stuff when they "create" new systems.

:asian:
chufeng
 
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Mike Clarke

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I think some people have a rather two dimentional idea about kata and there purpose? I use to think they were cast in bronze and the more I knew the more I'd be able to use in a real fight. But that was almost 30 years ago. since then I've learnt that kata are training tools to explore the 'feelings' I need to understand in order to make things work.
I asked Kanazawa sensei of shotokan karatedo why he once changed a kick in a kata from meigeri to mawashi geri? He told me that this was a very common kick used in shotokan but it did not appear in any of their kata, so he wanted his students to have an opportunity to use it in that context.
He later dropped it and returned to the front kick, but the point he was making was that the importance of kata is not found in the particular technique you do in them, but the 'feeling' you get from harmonising your body, mind and breath as you practise the challenges they present you with.
For some years I have understood the kata to be teaching me principles (I train in Okinawan goju-ryu), and not specific techniques. So, because I'm working on methods of movement, blending, breathing and so on, the bunkai becomes a matter of doing whatever presents its self according to how your attacker moves towards you, and not a question of,"If an attacker does 'A', you do 'B' in response. As far as I understand my karatedo, my aim is to blend with the attack, not confront it.
They bring the force, I supply the direction. That's the theory anyways. On the days I get it right, it works wonderfully.
Of course I'm not so good I can do this on cue, but then I've got lots of time to work on it (I hope).
If we think in terms of principles then the idea of 'style' goes out the window, and what we have is different groups of karate-ka that just happen to lean towards different principles more often than we do.
Having 'set' bunkai may well be good for introducing students to some of the ideas contained within a kata, but they should be disgarded quickly in favour of free flowing and blending responses.
But his is just my thinking of course, not some hard and fast rule.
I look forward to future reading here.
I was told once by a dojo senior in Okinawa, that if I did my kata well, I could hear the old masters speaking to me. I've come to understand that on occassion, I can indeed hear their voice.

Mike Clarke.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by Mike Clarke

For some years I have understood the kata to be teaching me principles (I train in Okinawan goju-ryu), and not specific techniques. So, because I'm working on methods of movement, blending, breathing and so on, the bunkai becomes a matter of doing whatever presents its self according to how your attacker moves towards you, and not a question of,"If an attacker does 'A', you do 'B' in response. As far as I understand my karatedo, my aim is to blend with the attack, not confront it....................[snip].........................
Having 'set' bunkai may well be good for introducing students to some of the ideas contained within a kata, but they should be disgarded quickly in favour of free flowing and blending responses.

This is kind of what I was trying to get across on another thread.
It is also one of several reasons why I don't go into great detail about bunkai on the Internet. Words don't do it justice, and it should be seen & felt as well.
Beginners are taught the "If A the B" style of kata bunkai, however intermediate students are taught "If A then MAYBE B or C or D or F and so".
I posted a webpage that had mpegs of techniques on it and was asked which ones were from Naihanchi kata..........my reply was "they all are", since each one of the techniques had various components of Naihanchi in them it was a true statement.
As I said before you can not have a "canned" defense because there is no "canned" attack, therefore kata teaches you how to "feel" what is the appropriate defense and then the body mechanics to resolve it. You may feel you need to use this hand movement from this part of the kata and this cover from another part and combine them with this finishing technique.........This has been nick named the "Alphabet soup" theory on bunkai. (i.e. take part C and add A and T to make CAT instead of kata techniques are in the order they are seen in the kata like A,B,C,D, and so on)




Originally posted by Mike Clarke

If we think in terms of principles then the idea of 'style' goes out the window, and what we have is different groups of karate-ka that just happen to lean towards different principles more often than we do.

So true.
One of my teacher's teachers, Mr. Nakamura, was very "anti-style". He disliked it when people thought of karate as different "styles" and caught flack because of it but he made sense as more people tend to agree with him now.




Originally posted by Mike Clarke

I was told once by a dojo senior in Okinawa, that if I did my kata well, I could hear the old masters speaking to me. I've come to understand that on occassion, I can indeed hear their voice.

I have heard basically the same thing from my teacher.............and it's true.
 
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chufeng

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I agree with all of that...
...and the part about style was best summed up by Matt Stone when he said that all of YiLi's shapes started feeling the same...and then RyuTe felt the same...and Arnis felt the same...

The underlying principles are pretty much the same; what you call it is just semantics.

Getting a "feel" for distance is best achieved with partner drills...
...what we call freestyle one-step...attacker can use any attack from any distance and the defender then must join with the attack...what technique is used is irrelevant...You can hone each of the strategies this way, or you can work on technique pulled out of the form...many angles and a variety of distances are then explored...this eliminates the "canned" attack and defend bunkai seen in other schools.

On maybe three occasions, when doing solo work, I've had the experience of someone else moving me through a form...my body literally felt as if strings were attached...qi flowed through me strongly and when I was finished I had the distinct impression that someone said..."That is the way it should be done...stop screwing it up!"

:asian:
chufeng
 

arnisador

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Originally posted by RyuShiKan

One of my teacher's teachers, Mr. Nakamura, was very "anti-style". He disliked it when people thought of karate as different "styles"

Philosophically I like this, but pragmatically the way one learns to move and fight in Isshin is different from the way one learns to move and fight in Uechi. Other styles are less dissimilar perhaps but at least these two are outliers and muct be considered different from (say) Goju and Shotokan and their offshoots, I think.
 
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RyuShiKan

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Originally posted by arnisador

Philosophically I like this, but pragmatically the way one learns to move and fight in Isshin is different from the way one learns to move and fight in Uechi. Other styles are less dissimilar perhaps but at least these two are outliers and muct be considered different from (say) Goju and Shotokan and their offshoots, I think.


I think Mr. Nakamura's idea was about "political" points of view and technical.
His idea was that all karate is one (in the big picture) and to squable over "styles" negates quality training.
Before all the egos got involved a "style" consisted of a single kata or maybe 2 kata. Now that there are about 10 or more kata from various areas, teachers, & concepts to each "style" it is incongruous to think one Karate "style" is that much different than the rest since they are all sort of mixed now anyway.
I think there are more similarities between "styles" than differences and the differences in "styles" is more of a personality/personal preference thing than anything else.
 

arnisador

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Originally posted by RyuShiKan

His idea was that all karate is one (in the big picture) and to squable over "styles" negates quality training.
Before all the egos got involved a "style" consisted of a single kata or maybe 2 kata. Now that there are about 10 or more kata from various areas, teachers, & concepts to each "style"

I certainly find this point of view appealing. Perhaps I took the statement too literally. Ah well, I'm on my way for a vacation from all this starting tomorrow...a break will do me well.
 
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Matt Stone

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Originally posted by chufeng

...and the part about style was best summed up by Matt Stone when he said that all of YiLi's shapes started feeling the same...and then RyuTe felt the same...and Arnis felt the same...

This came about from a series of conversations from different people in our Association about somewhat unrelated things...

Several people were discussing the "feeling" or "flavor" of the internal arts, and how Xingyi, Taiji and Bagua all had different "feelings" or "flavors." I remember when I first started Yili and first began doing Xingyi and then Taiji, I noticed that they did, in fact, have a different personality...

But I found myself at odds with some of the people discussing these things because several of them were quite senior to me, and the things they were discussing seemed very elementary to me (at least for seniors to be discussing in anything other than a casual manner).

So I approached my teacher and told him that I could no longer notice a significant difference between Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua or Yili, OR for that matter, between the aforementioned arts and the new ones I was studying (Modern Arnis and RyuTe Karate).

I was told that what I was experiencing was a good thing, and what was intended to happen after years of practice.

Personally, it just confuses the hell out of me on a regular basis; the different feelings used to help me understand what was going on, and now having everything feel "homogenized" makes "getting it" a little more difficult sometimes...

Anyway...

Gambarimasu.
 
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Mike Clarke

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Eiichi Miyazato sensei told me once that kata are there to hide the bunkai. I think what he meant was, we had to discover the feelings etc of the kata ourselves in order to learn anything from them other than the obvious things like balance timing etc.
It's also interesting to note that prior to WW2 Miyagi Chojun sensei only taught his students (those who trained with him in his backyard dojo I'm talking about here), sanchin plus one other kata, maybe two at the most.
Sanchin was the kata that held all the major principles of his fighting theory, and the other kata were chosen to fit the students character, build, ability etc.
There was no such thing as advanced kata and beginners kata, so someone training in kururunfa was not particularly more advanced than a student who trained in saifa.
It was only after the war, so Miyazato sensei told me, that Miyagi sensei worried his ideas might become extinct as no one person (except him) knew all the kata he taught. This was when he began teaching all the kata to his students.
Today, in common with every other 'style', we in goju-ryu place the kata in order, but this has more to do with 'grading tests' than learning the fighting theories of goju-ryu I think?
I tell my students there is no such thing as Basic karate, only people with a basic understanding of what they're doing. Likewise there is no such thing as Advanced karate either, only people who have an advanced (as in well developed) feeling for what they're doing.
This is what makes my saifa kata different from a 6th kyu student. Even though we are both doing the same moves in the same order, our undersatanding and feeling for what we're doing is very different. It also explains why fixed bunkai are at best tools to introduce students to the possibilities that lie hidden in the form.
As Ryushinkan pointed out, there are many things that just don't translate in to words, or over the net. If there is anything that you can say is 'fixed' in the martial arts, it's the need to feel and experience something in order to understand it.
I often ask my students to explain to me what I need to ride a bike (apart from the bike) they always say "Balance". Great I say, now explain to me what balance is? I change this sometimes and ask them what I need in order to swim? "The ability to float" they say. Fine, now how do I do that?
The thing is, when you understand these two things you don't need an explination, and when you don't, words just aren't enough. Karatedo is a bit like that too I think.

Mike Clarke.
 

HankinSalem

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From what I've been taught, there were traditionally, TWO ways that applications were taught:

1. If you were the heir to the system, the number one student or the son/daughter of the founder, you were force fed the applications and principles like a French goose being prepared to become foi gras.

2. If you were one of the regular students, sensei would throw you an occasional principle and you were supposed to figure it out for yourself. Lots of "monkey see, monkey do" going on here.


That said, over the last 40 years or so, I've picked up the following "bones" from various teachers:

a. Every time your arms cross in kata, there is a catch/trap/grab occuring.

b. every time you change directions in kata, there is a potential throw.

c. always look for the disruption of the oponents balance in a kata move.

d. there are NO superflous moves in kata. This is one place where John Sells and I digress. He thinks there are moves that are just for show. I can almost always find a way to make them applicable to fighting.

e. if a move ONLY works against an attack from one hand (i.e. a right hand punch) but won't work against an attack from the other side/hand, it isn't a valid application. True applications work against EITHER side attacks.

f. There should be a minimum of THREE, most often FIVE applications for each techinque in kata, generally:

-Disrupt the attack
-Grapple/Tie up
-Throw Take Down

with
Disable, i.e. break, dislocate, damage as the theme and
Destroy: kill, render unconscious or unable to continue

as the final ideas.
 

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