The Term Moro

[moromoro]

HI RICH

YOU SAID


YOU SAID
you say this and I say that. It all comes from different people from the PI and nothing is constant. There are no absolutes.

Go Search the Eskrima Digest for Moro and see how upset some Filipinos get about the term.

REMEMBER THE MORO'S ARE A MINORITY IN THE pi MAYBE only 5% or less...

The term moro can not be derogatory, evidence of this include the " muslims" independence movement calling themselves the MILF the moro islamic liberation front...
also in chavacano it simply means muslim but as i have said earlier many of the rich (higherclass) moros want to be called muslim... but the majority of the people in zamboanga and basilan use the term MORO..
also the term moromoro is used for our plays and dances so there is no way this term is derogatory in any way

thanks
Terry..

 

[Rich Parsons]

Example Links:

http://www.martialartsresource.com/anonftp/pub/eskrima/newdigests/v10.n056.txt



http://www.martialartsresource.com/filipino/filframe.htm


The first is someone getting upset with the term.

The second is a search on the term and there are many, that are not upset. I said that some people are upset and find it derogatory and or insulting. Personally, never been in the PI's I cannot know for sure. Unless I listen to the posts and talk to others.

 

[moromoro]

i just read the first link...

yes thats true GM Abrians moromoro orabes heneral, he called it moromoro because he saw (not trained) with a moro eskrimador in samar.. also he was )is) quite good at dancing and was involved in a number of stage plays in his local area as a youth...

but the one person on the link said,,

Please stop calling the philippino muslim "moros" as this is an insult, I would not consider it very healthy to use this expression in some places of the southern Philippines..

this is not entirely true, as i said earlier the highclass ( rich) like to be called muslim... and as you know the PI beign a 3rd world country there is a horrific gap between rich and poor...
but iam from the southern PI, zamboanga, and basilan and to say moro is no big deal...because it is our language where as muslim is a english translation....
also the MILF their independance movement........ the M stands for MORO and not MUSLIM (moro islamic liberation front) so even the independence movement is using the term MORO and not muslim.....

 

[Rich Parsons]

Terry,

I understand your point you are a part of the culture.

Like I said if I was an African I could use certain words with certain inflections and it would be acceptable. Since I am not I would take the risk of insulting.


When the Muslim culture was spreading and the Ottoman Empire was conquering the Med Sea, they controlled the souther portion of trhe Iberian Peninsula. Also know as Spain. The Spanish called the Muslims Moors as an insult to their belief.

So, you see, from the eurocentric point of view this is an insult.

From the PI's (* You say wealthy / Rich *) it is an insult.

From the PI is you are poor or from the local neighborhood then
it is ok.

I will continue to not use the term, to avoid the chance of insulting a Muslim friend I have not meet yet. You see I am more likely to meet either the Wealthy from the PI's or from Europe / Med area where it would be an insult.

To you it is pride. Use it, and maybe some day for everyone it will be pride.

 

[yilisifu]

Many years ago, I studied briefly under Leo Gaje. When we were visiting one day, he told me what part of the PI he was from and I remarked, "Oh, so you're a Moro..." THAT was a mistake. He regarded it as a derogatory term. I asked what he'd like to be called and he replied (fiercely), "Muslim!"

 

[moromoro]

i can see what the problem is, you see muslim is the english translation of the word it was probably never used until the americans came at the turn of last century....

if you are talking english then maybe they may find it derogatory to suddenly add the word moro to your vocab....

but if you are speaking bisaya or chavacano the 2 languages of christians in the muslim regions it is generally ok.... in zamboanga there is a joke that once a moro has made so much money he no longer wants to be called a moro he then wants to be called a muslim.... i have plenty of good moro friends back home.... non of them would be offended but then again i call them by their first name...


but i also agree with rich it is best if you are an english speaker to call them muslim....
but generally both terms are accepted

also most of the people (filipinos) who have claimed that this term is derogatory i.e (in other forums) have not been from mindanao, the most hostile moros come from zamboanga, basilan (sulu) lanao and cotabato, pikit north cotabato is rather bad now... christians and moros from this area will always tell you that the term moro is not derogatory and it is used often...


thanks

terry

 

[moromoro]

hi rich

i was a little taken back when you posted your reply on the other thread

Your name in itself is a disrepsect to thousands if not millions of Muslims.

RICH , CAN YOU PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE TERM MOROMORO IS NOT THE SAME AS THE TERM "MORO"
ALSO THE ISLAMIC PEOPLE OF THE P.I CALL THEMSELVES MORO I.E MILF

moromoro is a term used to decribe the old dances performed during fiesta in bisaya these dances are also known as linambay, but the popular term is moromoro,

READ THE POINT BELOW CAREFULLY RICH
also almost every large university in the philippines has in their arts department specific courses based solely on the practice of moromoro, so what are we to do ask them to change the name because it offends a few people,
even if the term MORO offends you rich please understand THE TERM MOROMORO does not have the SAME MEANING PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS.....


IN FINAL RICH PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT MOROMORO DOES NOT refer to the islamic population of the philippines it simply means performance plays during the spanish period.....UNDESTAND THE DIFFERENCE and also you have shown no evidence apart from those two eskrima digest post that proves the term is derogatory and this is the term moro not moromoro which are two very different words!!!!!

Rich iam hoping for your reply, it was just bugging me how you presisted that the term moromoro was derogatory when you where refering too the term MORO,,,,, remember both words have two very very different meanings


i hope this matter can be laid to rest after this post..

chat with you soon rich
hows your training going??

bye

terry

 

[girlychuks]

Moro is also the term for the japanese two-tailed giant wolf god, ala "Princess mononoke"

I like the word moro, I had no idea it was derogotory....

but, "yep", which means yes in the U.P., also means f**k in russian.

Go figure.

 

[moromoro]

I like the word moro, I had no idea it was derogotory....

it is not derogatory please find one bit of adequet evidence to support it........not postings from other forums, as you can see many filipino universities use the term contact anyone of them and ask if they teach moromoro dances or moro history they do not use muslim history they use moro history......

please also read all other post... and try to find proof of it beign derogatory

terry

 

[Cthulhu]

If one person has found the word to be derogatory, then it is derogatory. Not necessarily to you, but to someone else.

If you don't find the term to be derogatory, that's fine. However, don't assume others feel the same way.

Cthulhu

 

[moromoro]

Cthulhu

If one person has found the word to be derogatory, then it is derogatory. Not necessarily to you, but to someone else.

wheres the evidence that the word is derogatory????????

also the word moromoro means differently to moro??

If you don't find the term to be derogatory, that's fine. However, don't assume others feel the same way.

universities in the philippines use both terms now are they acting in a derogatory manner?????

please remember there is a big difference between the term moro and the term moromoro which means dance.....do not claim that the term moromoro is a derogatory term unless you can find evidence if you think it is derogatory then you should make a whole lot of phone calls to universities in the philippines and ask them that this offends you and tell them to stop using the term........


note before Rich ask me to stop using the term moromoro i have never ever used the word "moro" in any of my post.... please understand the difference between moromoro and the term MORO..............

moromoro does not mean moro said twice...................the whole idea of this is ridiculous but i can understand you point of view because you do not undestand the language......and are not from the moro regions

 

[Cthulhu]

So yilisifu's story about the term 'moro' being offensive to Leo Gaje was a figment of his imagination?

I'm talking about the term 'moro', not 'moromoro'.

Cthulhu

 

[moromoro]

I'm talking about the term 'moro', not 'moromoro'.

as long as your starting to understand that the two dont mean the same thing thats ok.....

So yilisifu's story about the term 'moro' being offensive to Leo Gaje was a figment of his imagination?

is Gaje "moro" ???? i dind'nt know

also in zamboanga city and basilan (sulu) moro is an everyday term even in the land of the maguindanao moro is also an everyday term?

Also respect the fact that 95% of the population in the philippines is christian with our national religion beign catholicism.........

thankyou

terry

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by moromoro
hi rich

i was a little taken back when you posted your reply on the other thread



RICH , CAN YOU PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT THE TERM MOROMORO IS NOT THE SAME AS THE TERM "MORO"
ALSO THE ISLAMIC PEOPLE OF THE P.I CALL THEMSELVES MORO I.E MILF

moromoro is a term used to decribe the old dances performed during fiesta in bisaya these dances are also known as linambay, but the popular term is moromoro,

READ THE POINT BELOW CAREFULLY RICH
also almost every large university in the philippines has in their arts department specific courses based solely on the practice of moromoro, so what are we to do ask them to change the name because it offends a few people,
even if the term MORO offends you rich please understand THE TERM MOROMORO does not have the SAME MEANING PLEASE UNDERSTAND THIS.....


IN FINAL RICH PLEASE UNDERSTAND THAT MOROMORO DOES NOT refer to the islamic population of the philippines it simply means performance plays during the spanish period.....UNDESTAND THE DIFFERENCE and also you have shown no evidence apart from those two eskrima digest post that proves the term is derogatory and this is the term moro not moromoro which are two very different words!!!!!

Rich iam hoping for your reply, it was just bugging me how you presisted that the term moromoro was derogatory when you where refering too the term MORO,,,,, remember both words have two very very different meanings


i hope this matter can be laid to rest after this post..

chat with you soon rich
hows your training going??

bye

terry

Terry,

With respect, I choose a subject dear to you on the other thread, to get you to think. To make you step back and see how there is at least two sides to an issue and not only one.

I have read books that have referenced, the term Moromoro as a form of dance. I have also read histroy books that listed the term as slang for the Muslims, also known as Moors, by the Spanish.

You say it is not and you are from the PI. I know others from the PI directly who have said it is not 100% accepted by everyone as the proper term. So, your absolute proof is not available. Yet, you absolute proof that it is not derogatory is not there either. IT goes both ways. If you invalidate my sources, other Forums posted by Filipinos from the PI and from Western Europe and North American History Books. Two way street.


You previously asked what if the US Flag was not exactly represnted. We have everything in the US with the colors Red White and Blue. Sometimes Red and White Stripes, and with a field of Blue, sometimes with starts and sometimes with only one star, or ..., so you see it is not meant with disrespect, but for pride for the USA. As is the Term Moromoro for you and others.

In the USA, there are people of prefer the tem "Person of Color", or "African American", and others just prefer "Black", or any other term they may find acceptable. Yet there is no 100% agreed upon term.

So, when I got scolded by a Filipino about Terminology, that cannot be agreed too, by the Filipino's themselves it is very difficult to know what to do. So you error on the side of caution and respect. If you were to use a term here in the USA, and it was not felt to be the best phrase, most would tell you in private how they would prefer to be called or referenced too.

I did not mean any disrepect to your or your teacher. Only to try to get you to stop for a minute and think. And then to see that there are many sides, and many issues. People in the US get yelled at or scolded for being dumb or ignorant or just plain wrong, for not knowing the correct term of method or way or . . . , . Yet it is from the the Filipino's that most of US have learned these terms or phrases or ways of thinking or using a technique. Yet, just because an Amercan does it, all of a sudden it becomes wrong. I have seen this with the Korean and Japanese systems also. It is fine to have pride in your country and your heritage and the arts of your land.

It is not correct to assume that someone is wrong just because of location, color of their skin or their sex. In the USA, we preach tolerance, and try to allow everyone a voice to express their opinions and feelings. Now there are some people who do not, yet most, as by our laws and policies show, do believe i this way.


I hope this helps explain, why I choose this subject. To you it is clear and understood, to others it is not so easy and there are other issues to be concerned with.


As for my Training, Thank you for asking. I am doing well, and continuing to learn and work with my instructor and with my peers. :asian:

 

[moromoro]

hi Rich

I have read books that have referenced, the term Moromoro as a form of dance. I have also read histroy books that listed the term as slang for the Muslims, also known as Moors, by the Spanish.

you are right the term moromoro is a from of dance,,, moromoro is never ever ever used for a slang for muslims,,, the term MORO is used..........

yes rich i will no longer use the term MORO in this forum i shall use the term muslim or islamic population of the PI

but moromoro is completely different it is not the word moro twice it has a completely different meaning..............
there is absolutely notthing wrong with this term (dance)......

i hope you undestand

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by moromoro
hi Rich



you are right the term moromoro is a from of dance,,, moromoro is never ever ever used for a slang for muslims,,, the term MORO is used..........

yes rich i will no longer use the term MORO in this forum i shall use the term muslim or islamic population of the PI

but moromoro is completely different it is not the word moro twice it has a completely different meaning..............
there is absolutely notthing wrong with this term (dance)......

i hope you undestand

Terry,

I understand your point.

Yet, I wonder if you understand mine???

From another thread in the Knife Arts Section - You said:

your right i know notthing about Dionaldo, i probably never will bother to know anything about him, not to take anything about his teaching, iam sure he has learnt from the best arnisadors in the US................and may be a fine teacher......
all iam saying is that you can train in the philippines for a whole lot less for the same amount of time one on one with people with real experience in binunalay and war time, who have been practicing for over 50years, now isnt this worth it also??


thats why i asked about hosting seminars in the US prices there are very high for FMA, how high is the demand?? also how many do you usually expect for these seminars???

Your previous post there also had the same flavor or tone to it. If you do not train in the PI then you cannot learn the real thing.

It may be cheaper to train in the PI, and the quality of the instructors may be great. Yet, who will give me the proper introduction to them? You do not think I could just get on a plane and fly over to the PI and then walk down any street and pick some one and then ask them to train me??? First, they would not know me and even if they did have something to offer me, they would not just give it to me, for some small training fee. And also how do I know that they have the true goods? Until I get a chance to work and train with them?

This is just my opinion. You do not have to go to the PI to get best FMA training. You certainly can get great training both in the PI and in the USA. Just as you do not need to go to Japan to get the best Japanese Training. Also, note, I could not even go and watch some of the local's in thier dojo when I was in Japan last September. It was not near a Military base and the instructors were not used to Americans just wishing to watch and then pay their respects at the end of the class. I had not been properly introduced, nor had I someone to vouch for me. and not looking to challenge.

I understand that you are Filipino and currently live in Austrailia and travel back to the PI for training. This is great. Be proud of your heritage and your training. I also understand there may be some language and or cultural issues and or differences between us, yet I hope that you keep an open mind, and realize, that some of the great masters have also left the PI and are now elsewhere teaching. It does nto mean that those left in the PI are any less or any greater than those that came to the USA.

Have a nice day and thank you
:asian:

 

[thekuntawman]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons

Your previous post there also had the same flavor or tone to it. If you do not train in the PI then you cannot learn the real thing.

It may be cheaper to train in the PI, and the quality of the instructors may be great. Yet, who will give me the proper introduction to them? You do not think I could just get on a plane and fly over to the PI and then walk down any street and pick some one and then ask them to train me??? First, they would not know me and even if they did have something to offer me, they would not just give it to me, for some small training fee. And also how do I know that they have the true goods? Until I get a chance to work and train with them?

This is just my opinion. You do not have to go to the PI to get best FMA training. You certainly can get great training both in the PI and in the USA. Just as you do not need to go to Japan to get the best Japanese Training. Also, note, I could not even go and watch some of the local's in thier dojo when I was in Japan last September. It was not near a Military base and the instructors were not used to Americans just wishing to watch and then pay their respects at the end of the class. I had not been properly introduced, nor had I someone to vouch for me. and not looking to challenge.

:asian:

rich

i agree that the martial art is not better just because its from the philippines. but understand this, that there is a major difference of how they teach martial arts in the west (even how many filipinos teach it to), and how the art is taught in the philippines. when you take a stance that you dont want to learn in the philippines, or at least from somebody who teaches in that philippine style of teaching, you lost out on what the filipino art is all about.

in saying this i mean that some basic things, like how easy people get there feelings hurt or get offended. or how impatient the martial arts student is here. or arrogant. or how easily impressed he is by something new. these are all things you hear me say over and over, and people disagree with me so strong about it, but guess what, in this art you love so much, its philosophy disagrees with you. the instant instructor, sparring free seminar martial arts you guys love so much, is not true philippine martial arts. dont mean to offend anyone, but its true. you cant go to a teacher once in a while, with a group of people and expect to get advance level as fast as you will here in the US. in the philippines your fighting skill matters, here they say your fighting skills mean nothing because it was not a fight to the death, yet in those seminars they drill and drill, and practice prearranged stuff, with no sparring (because its not "real enough).

mr dan inosanto has no interest in seeing what the philippines has to offer, and those who follow in his footsteps have very little idea of what the filipino arts really stands for. so a newcomer to the US who can show you what your missing gets no respect unless he falls into place with whats already here.

and this is what rich said that makes me post,
"You do not think I could just get on a plane and fly over to the PI and then walk down any street and pick some one and then ask them to train me??? First, they would not know me and even if they did have something to offer me, they would not just give it to me, for some small training fee. And also how do I know that they have the true goods? Until I get a chance to work and train with them?"

first, yes i do. you dont know your teachers anymore than you would if you walk into a new school here in the US. if you only go to teachers who are popular (the ones who sell tapes and write articles and do seminars) you limit yourself so bad because you are a follower. going to the martial arts is not like buying a car. reputations can be built with money, media and sometimes trickery. for true martial arts knowledge, the guy who nobody knows might have the best martial arts. but the followers only get the mcdonalds martial arts thats made for everybody, and everybody learned it.

also, 2. dont expect someone, especially a martial art teacher to just "give" you something valuable. my granpa use to say real fighting arts isnt for everyone. if you make it for anyone to have, you are taking away what makes the art a fighting art, instead of a martial arts. some people are willing to work hard for something and earn it, but most people will only get it if you just hand it to them.

"how to know if he has the true goods". you dont. how does a 7 year old kid knows if his parents are good parents, can he change them? how about a 10 year old who says his math teacher is not a good one, do you take him seriously. when you are in a FMA school, you have three things to let you know your place. first his intermediate students. if you cant whip them, then you must be in the right place, and they got the "true goods". second, the teacher if he is young enough, will probably spar with you, and that will tell you if he got the "true goods". last, you have yourself. did you become a better fighter? how do you know? if he has the "true goods" you will spar with other people, and you will see if you got better or not. but "true goods" to most american FMA people is, how many tapes do you have out, how impressive is the demos when he swings around his sticks, and how many people go to you for certificates.

the philippine martial arts in america has become a just add water martial art like shopping center tae kwon do. and this is why you will here most filipinos say, you need to go to the philippines.

 

[thekuntawman]

anyway, i am a muslim, my family is muslim, and i never heard that "moro" offends people except here on the internet.

 

[moromoro]

thekuntawman

you are a true brother in the FMA we argree on the same things and maybe because we have experienced the same things when it comes to training... we are blessed to have experienced the old form no drills no curriculum no grading only skill level that matters....

that there is a major difference of how they teach martial arts in the west (even how many filipinos teach it to), and how the art is taught in the philippines. when you take a stance that you dont want to learn in the philippines, or at least from somebody who teaches in that philippine style of teaching, you lost out on what the filipino art is all about.

this i agree with completely...

in saying this i mean that some basic things, like how easy people get there feelings hurt or get offended. or how impatient the martial arts student is here. or arrogant. or how easily impressed he is by something new. these are all things you hear me say over and over, and people disagree with me so strong about it, but guess what, in this art you love so much, its philosophy disagrees with you. the instant instructor, sparring free seminar martial arts you guys love so much, is not true philippine martial arts. dont mean to offend anyone, but its true.

this is all but true, also i have seen this all too often this forum is one of them....

for true martial arts knowledge, the guy who nobody knows might have the best martial arts. but the followers only get the mcdonalds martial arts thats made for everybody, and everybody learned it.

this is absolutely true many masters in the philippines dont bother to advertise they dont charge a set price for lessons and they dont care if they have any students, i have found this experience with my teachers

i agree it is sad how many people now believe that if you have the biggest organisations you are in the best martial arts also one which sickens me is the fact that MANY STUDYING THE FMA IN WESTERN COUNTRY'S TODAY DO IT ONLY TO BECOME TEACHERS THEMSELVES SOME AFTER ONLY A FEW short years WITH NO REAL EXPERIENCE......I have always learned it not to become a teacher but to become a fighter,

I understand that you are Filipino and currently live in Austrailia and travel back to the PI for training.

yes rich but i also train here with GM Navarro,

that some of the great masters have also left the PI and are now elsewhere teaching. It does nto mean that those left in the PI are any less or any greater than those that came to the USA.

of course GM navarro is now a resident of australia and so is your teacher Gm bout a resident of the USA.... it is not the masters that are bad but many of the students who also aspire to be teachers and leave thier masters or those who have never even trtained with their GM who start teaching themselves...too many mcdonalds schools and people do not know and understand our culture,,,,,, FMA means you should also try to understand our culture as well.....

anyway, i am a muslim, my family is muslim, and i never heard that "moro" offends people except here on the internet.

i have been trying to tell them this for weeks.....what do you say to this rich

thanks guys

thekuntawman feel free to email me if you want about training also rich and anyone else for that matter

 

[Rich Parsons]

thekuntawman,

I would not expect the Manongs, to just give me things or techniques. Maybe I have a wrong view of how I would be perceived, being caucasion and asking for something with out a proper introduction. Which I have been told is important to many of the Masters.

I still consider myself a student after 17 + Years of training formally. I also teach students. Yet, as you said you still grow. This is fine.


Yet, this is the opinion I get from both yourself and Moromoro and other Filipino's. IF you are not Filipino and do not train in the PI with a True Master you have nothing. Or, at least a True Master who has just come over from the PI. At least this is how I perceive it.

I will continue to train, and play with others when I can from out side my school. Why for I agree with the new people and new movements are what you need to practice against.

Respect