The Hard Head Mr. Macho

[Disco]

This is mainly a question for Instructors, but all are invited to comment.

Just about every school I've been in or visited has one of these guys. He's the one that asks questions up the Gazoo, what if scenario's (should be a sci-fi writter) and the guy that forces himself to feel no pain if you use him as a crash dummy.

If you have had the pleasure (sarcasm) of dealing with the Incredible Shrinking Brain, how did you handle this person?

 

[jukado1]

Disco: it may be annoying but this type of student has a place in the school, if you don't have one, go get one. when i teach i tell the students that we will have a ? and anwser period at the end of the class, but meany students still won't ask ? for fear of looking dumb, having a questener like that helps to make sure that all of your student get it. also if you have a teaching system that incorperates privite lessons, tell this students to save all but the most relevent ? to their privite sessions. as far as not showing pain, your goal is not to show the result of the technique, but how to do the move, and if your doing, lets say a arm bar, if its done right, the goal is not to injure, but to control, if as i do an arm bar my partner is bent over being controled by the hold, thats all thats needed, and if you can't control him, then ether the hold doesn't work or your doing something wrong. good luck.
train hard, train smart.

 

[Disco]

Having someone who is asking questions that have purpose is good I'll admit. But when you have someone who becomes the assassin of common sense, it takes on a whole different context. Other students in the class become annoyed with the constant what if's. As far as techniques go, yes an arm bar or wrist lock either is done correctly or not. There are many techniques that are done in conjunction with strikes. If you know how the technique works and you brace yourself against it, then it won't work. We only simulate the strike and then proceed with the technique for instruction. In doing it for real, you would really hurt people. This type of person relishes the aspect of making his fellow students look foolish because he insists on forcing his viewpoint on how he can not allow it to work. He totally disreguards the aspect of the opponent dosen't know what your going to do in a self defense situation. Talking / explaining to this type of person, falls on deaf ears.

I made the mistake a long, long time ago of submitting to this type of persons actions and wound up allowing myself to show the error of his ways. He got hurt, the technique was proved and we lost one or two newer students because of the harm inflicted.
The seasoned students were understanding, but it's not one of my better moments. So far I've been lucky. Haven't had another encounter, but one could be around the cornor.

Options; More Talk, Don't pay any attention, Remove from school?

 

[Shuri-te]

Disco,

There are lots of issues with this oddball, and I will address only one. If you find that his incessant questioning is interfering with your ability to teach and more important of having your students learn, then you have an easy out. Tell him, diplomatically, that you are not in a position to answer so many questions. Give him a ration, perhaps 2-3 per class. (Or 1 per class.) That's it. If he doesn't like it, then your system is not for him.

I have dealt with the what if-folks before. I tell them that regarding beginners, there can be no what-ifs. That a given technique is a particular response to a particular action and that is all she wrote. I tell them that in reality, there are a thousand what-ifs with any movement, and it is futile to teach beginners every conceivable what-if. So you don't address them at his level. If he stays for several years, he will be exposed to more of the complexities and variations once he has mastered many of the concepts you teach.

One what-if I find really anoying is when you are doing a combination, which you need to do when you teach. The what-if guys think that there are openings in-between certain pieces of your response. When in actuality, the technique is done as a flurry and the openings are so fleeting that they are hardly openings.

A martial arts class is not a debate, or a discussion. It is primarily for training. Anything that interferes with your ability to have your students train is unacceptable.

I have told more than one student this very thought, in a respectful manner. ("I know you like to ask questions, and that you are trying to learn, and perhaps you think that these questions are good for your learning process. But in reality, until you get some grounding in this technique, until you have begun to learn it, you really are not in a good position to understand the pros and cons of it. After 1000 reps might be a good time to think about questions. Come back after that.")

 

[jukado1]

Disco: explain that he is disrupting the class tell him that due to class interference he can only take privite lessons, or he must leave the school. is this a otherwise good pearson who if he straightnd up could be an asset to the school, or just a jerk??
if he's a jerk no amount of tutation is worth having him in the school. good luck, train hard, train smart.

 

[GaryM]

After the umteenth dumba** question I get irritated and ask him "WHAT IF A PINK 747 FELL OUT OF THE SKY AND LANDED ON YOUR HEAD?" As far as people who 'resist' , ignore them. Focus on the 'audience' and the info you are trying to convey and the class will pay attention to you and not to the 'dummy'. Even the dummy will be paying attention to you and if you do your strikes or locks ect. a hairsbreath before you vocalize what you are doing the ukie won't have time to 'brace' themselves for the attack. ("... then *strike* we come through the floating ribs with a middle knuckle rake...") as you keep eye contact with the class.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Disco
This is mainly a question for Instructors, but all are invited to comment.

Just about every school I've been in or visited has one of these guys. He's the one that asks questions up the Gazoo, what if scenario's (should be a sci-fi writter) and the guy that forces himself to feel no pain if you use him as a crash dummy.

If you have had the pleasure (sarcasm) of dealing with the Incredible Shrinking Brain, how did you handle this person?

If Students that ask good questions then nits no problem.I don't care.
But if they ask stupid question it is not good.

If they fight back when I do technique is ok. I just do technique stronger, more pain for them.
This kind of student is good to make your technique more real.

 

[paihequan]

If they fight back when I do technique is ok. I just do technique stronger, more pain for them.

What about simply teaching the student rather than hurting them. Would this not be more beneficial to all?

:asian:

 

[Aegis]

Originally posted by paihequan
What about simply teaching the student rather than hurting them. Would this not be more beneficial to all?

:asian:

Every student in my style** gets hit from time to time. Locks are generally applied to the point where the uke is forced to go almost to the point of falling to avoid the serious pains that accompanies such locks. If you never learn to deal with pain, you are missing out on quite a large portion of self-defence. If you've never been hit to the extent that it causes pain in training, the first time you meet it on the street you will be unprepared for it.

I come away from almost every session with minor injuries. But I keep going back because I know that in the long run they're good for toughening up.


** edit: the style I do, not MY style. I make no claims of ownership of the style

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
What about simply teaching the student rather than hurting them. Would this not be more beneficial to all?

:asian:

No students never get hurt just small pain.
Martial arts students never get pain in technique never understand technique, then never resepect technique.
Maybe they like no pain kind of training ballett is better for them.
Maybe they like long talking about technique and little doing...........it's bad way to train.
You do you know, no need talk about doing.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Aegis
Every student in my style** gets hit from time to time. Locks are generally applied to the point where the uke is forced to go almost to the point of falling to avoid the serious pains that accompanies such locks. If you never learn to deal with pain, you are missing out on quite a large portion of self-defence. If you've never been hit to the extent that it causes pain in training, the first time you meet it on the street you will be unprepared for it.

I come away from almost every session with minor injuries. But I keep going back because I know that in the long run they're good for toughening up.


** edit: the style I do, not MY style. I make no claims of ownership of the style

I like this idea.
I think maybe you understand martial arts technique pretty good.

 

[Turner]

As an instructor I've dealt with both of these types.

The guy that asks what-if's should be encouraged to explore how the particular technique will work or won't work in different situations. You want your students to know how to analyze a technique so that when the time comes for them to use their skills on the street they will be able to defend against an attack no matter what the attack is. However these questions should only be allowed in a certain forum. Set aside 15 minutes or even a whole class period to where you have your students use their imagination to fully explore and analyze a technique.

The second type of student is awesome to have in class. He is able to resist pain and make it so that your technique doesn't work as perfectly as it should. Wow! Think of the opportunity that provides. It gives the perfect example for the street where things won't go as well as they should and you may have to alter a technique or method to make it work. I admit, I was the second type of student. A wrist lock never worked on me for pain compliance, however it did work perfectly because it doesn't need pain to get it to work. It just needs the right leverage. I had a student who I couldn't even get good leverage with and I enjoyed working with him because I would have to add something to the technique to get it to work. I would instantly adapt so that he would go down. If I had to stick out my foot for him to trip over, so be it. He'd go down. Use this to your advantage just as you use the small guy, large guy and medium guy. They are different and it helps you and your students be prepared for almost anything that is thrown at them.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by Turner
As an instructor I've dealt with both of these types.

The guy that asks what-if's should be encouraged to explore how the particular technique will work or won't work in different situations. You want your students to know how to analyze a technique so that when the time comes for them to use their skills on the street they will be able to defend against an attack no matter what the attack is. However these questions should only be allowed in a certain forum. Set aside 15 minutes or even a whole class period to where you have your students use their imagination to fully explore and analyze a technique.

The second type of student is awesome to have in class. He is able to resist pain and make it so that your technique doesn't work as perfectly as it should. Wow! Think of the opportunity that provides. It gives the perfect example for the street where things won't go as well as they should and you may have to alter a technique or method to make it work. I admit, I was the second type of student. A wrist lock never worked on me for pain compliance, however it did work perfectly because it doesn't need pain to get it to work. It just needs the right leverage. I had a student who I couldn't even get good leverage with and I enjoyed working with him because I would have to add something to the technique to get it to work. I would instantly adapt so that he would go down. If I had to stick out my foot for him to trip over, so be it. He'd go down. Use this to your advantage just as you use the small guy, large guy and medium guy. They are different and it helps you and your students be prepared for almost anything that is thrown at them.

This is good training I think.
If they don't get some pain you don't know if it works.

 

[paihequan]

Rick,

You misunderstand. I meant that if you simply hall off and belt the daylights out of your students simply because you can then you become nothing more than an ego-motivated bully and not an instructor.

There is a big difference between letting a student "feel" a technique via pain compliance etc as a teaching / training method and simply belting them without any real sense of understanding.

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
Rick,

You misunderstand. I meant that if you simply hall off and belt the daylights out of your students simply because you can then you become nothing more than an ego-motivated bully and not an instructor.

There is a big difference between letting a student "feel" a technique via pain compliance etc as a teaching / training method and simply belting them without any real sense of understanding.

No you misundertsand.
I never say what you wrote. It's your idea.
You always trying to make my words different than what I write.
Why?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

There is a saying "To feel is to believe"

When I work with some people learning a technique, I can tell if they are doing it wrong. On occation, I'll tell them to do it so I can feel it. (I do of course ask they dont break me..heh).

I may not know how to 'do' the technique myself, but I do remember how it felt (and how I reacted) when my instructor did it to me. I can then help my partners to debug their techniques.

This of course requires me to 'feel' it. Otherwise, its like Rick said...we're just dancing.



paihequan - I don't see Rick having said what you read.

 

[paihequan]

Rick,

No you misundertsand. I never say what you wrote. It's your idea. You always trying to make my words different than what I write. Why?

Maybe it has to do with your previous attitude towards me as witnessed on other threads that make me read more into your posts. maybe it's because when I make a post you try to use same to hav a go at me? Perhaps if you were a little less confrontational we'd get along a lot better. My apologies if I read your post wrong.

:asian:

 

[Rick Tsubota]

Originally posted by paihequan
Rick,



Maybe it has to do with your previous attitude towards me as witnessed on other threads that make me read more into your posts.

maybe it is because I know things about you and what you say in the past to other people. maybe that is why I dont like you or respect you as martial arts person.

 

[paihequan]

Ricky Tsubota Wrote:

maybe it is because I know things about you and what you say in the past to other people. maybe that is why I dont like you or respect you as martial arts person.

1/. You and I have never met.

2/. You sadly, make assumptions based on the "talk" of others.

3/. My past is just that, past. It is long over and done with. The only person who seems concerned about it is you. That is sad.

4/. I hope and pray that you find some happiness in your life so that you stop being so judgmental of others and that you find whatever it is you are seeking from life ---- if only for your own sake.

I'll not lower this board by any further negative discussion of this type. Please try to keep on to the actual topic of discussion and refrain from personal attacks. It does nothing but lower yourself. Respect that which the moderators have posted and requested .... I intend to.

:asian:

 

[Shuri-te]

I commented before on Mr. Interrupter, the "too many questions" student. Now I'd like to comment on Mr. Tough Guy, the one who likes to resist on the manipulations, locks and chokes. The guy that lives by the maxim "pain is weakness leaving the body". The guy who never wants to tap.

In my system, we do a lot of locking. It has been my experience that big differences in mass and strength can be difficult to overcome for many techniques. Techniques that might work well against someone your own size or smaller, can be difficult against someone much stronger or larger, especially if he is resisting.

It is my opinion that students who like to resist and are good at it are godsends. I think we should all expect that it is most likely that we will be attacked by larger, stronger men and therefore, we need as much experience as we can testing techniques against bigger stronger men in the dojo. Tough guy students can really help to that end. The challenge I have seen in many dojos is that big strong men are less likely to train, so dojos are filled with medium-sized and small guys. If you get a strong one, take advantage of it.

Let me share a recent experience.

I have been developing some bo (staff) defense applications from the kata Jutte. Part of each movement is to strike an arm on the biceps, forearm, elbow, or wrist, to get it to release the bo. My regular "big guy" partner I like to train with is 6'3", 230lbs and really solid. (I'm 5'8'', 175lbs) But he is a student of jujutsu and he is trained to let go rather easily. This is not to say he makes it easy for me, it is just he just doesn't make it tough. Those readers that practice biceps strikes know that they are pretty darn uncomfortable. It is tough getting hit there hard, again, and again. And in my techniques, I use good body mechanics to leverage my mass in striking. So when I get a good shot in this guy's biceps, he doesn't fight it. Likewise, when I am holding the bo, neither do I. The net is that a lot of techniques I developed worked well against him, even though he is a lot bigger than me.

I have another friend I train with. He really isn't that big, he's about my size, but he grew up on a farm and has great forearm strength. And although he is a really nice guy, he is a "tough guy". He doesn't like to give in. He makes you earn something. When he resisted some of my bo disarming techniques, they fall apart.

But here was the great thing. My "tough guy" partner was more than willing to let me unload on his arms to see where each technique was breaking down so it could be refined. (Palm heel doesn't work against the biceps, lets try an elbow smash. That doesn't work, lets try it with more rotation or full speed and power, that doesn't work, lets try it against the forearm, that doesn't work, lets hit a pressure point on the wrist.)

I would always apologize, and ask, can I try it hard here, and so on. And sooner or later, I would find the technique that worked against his steel grip. And he got big bruises up and down his arm to show for it. But I continued to hone my ideas so that they would be more applicable across a wider group of attackers, and that is the key. I bring up this experience with the bo, because in this situation I really had to unload on my partner, all to good purpose. But the same issue comes up in locking techniques. Someone resists, so you have to go extra hard, which can result in more pain for the attacker, just as my "tough guy" partner had his share of pain when we worked together.

Regarding grabbing attacks (those you use locks against), I am most concerned with having techniques that work well for smaller women. They are vulnerable, and in attacks against women, grabbing is often part of the technique. For us male instructors, it is unlikely we will have the opportunity to train often against partners with as big a difference in mass as small women in the dojo and on the street face. It is common for 110 lb women to face off against 220 lb men. There are plenty of both around. But I weigh 175lbs. and there are few 350 lb attackers on the street, and precious few in the dojo.

If you have a locking technique that breaks down under the resistance of a tough guy partner, that is around your size, think of how ineffective that technique would be for a woman going against a man 50-100% bigger, and with proportionately more upper body strength.

One last story. I was teaching what I thought was a great technique, guaranteed to work, at a large seminar that I was invited to. Against a right strike, you elbow the guy in the head with your right arm, pivoting to the left, and blocking with the left. Then you trap the right arm against your neck with your left (scoop under) so that when you turn to the right, you have an arm bar. At the same time strike hard on the neck with your right hand, leveraging the body mechanics in the pivot to the right. The typical response is his head gets pulled down a foot or two, well positioned for further follow-up.

There was a participant at the seminar who was 6'6" and weighed over 300 lbs. I felt like a rag doll next to this guy. There was no way, at 5'8" that I could get the leverage to budge his massive arm with my puny arm bar. And my strike to the neck could barely reach. I did happen to have a variation up my sleeve. (kick to the groin with the right foot to lower the head) then both arms for the arm bar rotating to the right. But the first technique was a total failure. I had just never encountered such a big partner.

But if you look at the difference between his size and mine, you find a very similar occurrence when looking at women martial artists and fairly large men in the dojo and the street.

So use these tough guys. Use them to test your techniques so you can have more confidence that what you pass to your smaller female students can work against big guys. And here is a key to success. Tell them how valuable their resistance is to the class learning, but they have to use it at the right time. It isn't appropriate to resist all student attacks in partner work. Sometimes the defender HAS to do something many times against a non-resister to learn how to move well so that the speed and body mechanics are there when resistance is added. And you can announce it to the class that your "tough guy" is a great asset, and when students are having a tough time, they can ask him to relax a bit. Then everyone benefits.