The Fall of Pax Americana

[Bob Hubbard]

Some will say Johnson, Ford and Bush (and a few others). Some will say the Mafia.
JFK was looking to get out of Vietnam. After his death, we went in full bore.
Who benefited from an increased US military presence in Vietnam?
JFK was in negotiations with the USSR. After his death, the Cold War got Colder.
Who benefited from heightened state of alert?

I don't have the answers. I do however have thousands of questions. The deaths of JFK, RFK and MLK among others have hundreds of unanswered questions revolving around mishandled evidence, tampered reports, etc. Many of those involved then, are now either directly or indirectly in control of this country. Hense my coup in the 60's comment. Considering the number of enemies Bush Sr. made as director of the CIA, is it any wonder he had Dan "The Insurance Policy" Quayle as his VP?

We complain when China runs students over with tanks...but Kent State wasn't that long ago....and recent protests in NY and Washington prove still that government forces will violently clamp down on protestors and free speech in this country as well.

As to JFK...if you can't take the time to watch the footage (its run on History Channel, and is available on DVD), then I can't begin to summarize 20+ hours of evidence contrary to the official story. My opinion is admitadly biased. I offer my research so that one can make their own educated decisions on the truth.
Here is 1 more link: http://www.jfk-info.com/index2.html

Back to Rome.... as I said...the corruption, issues, problems, etc are both different and the same. We are, like them, the leading technological and military nation in the world. We, like them, are being attacked on 2 fronts, internally and externally, and our eyes are not on the things needed to survive the assault intact. How we as a nation act over the next few decades will determine if we follow their path, or continue to blaze our own.

 

[loki09789]

I don't have the answers. I do however have thousands of questions. The deaths of JFK, RFK and MLK among others have hundreds of unanswered questions revolving around mishandled evidence, tampered reports, etc. Many of those involved then, are now either directly or indirectly in control of this country.

As to JFK...if you can't take the time to watch the footage (its run on History Channel, and is available on DVD), then I can't begin to summarize 20+ hours of evidence contrary to the official story. My opinion is admitadly biased. I offer my research so that one can make their own educated decisions on the truth.
Here is 1 more link: http://www.jfk-info.com/index2.html

QUOTE]

Well, you called it a coup attempt, yet you don't clearly state your stance and say you have no answers. Use a term yet don't explain your reasoning? Single gunman, poorly handled evidence, multiple shooters....all points to a messy handling of the aftermath of a successful assassination by someone.

The leap to coup would require more evidence for me. I never said that it wasn't fishy or that it wasn't strange how gov. evidence and such is sketchy/inconsistent. I never said that I was ignoring the suspiciousness of the footage of the shooting in relation to the single shooter story. But, Oswald was admittedly a hell of a shooter. There are people who don't know knife arts who would say that some of the things FMArtists can do is 'impossible' until they see it. Even then, some will claim that it is an 'isolated' event that is 'impossible to replicate'.... whatever allows them to perpetuate the fear/conspiracy that validates their existence.

As far as the Rome analogy, yeah it could be made. But, in the end, our system isn't perfect, but I don't think it is the NEW ROME anymore than any powerful, advanced culture could be deemed so. I have referred to the USSR numerous times as another possible analogous nation - so what.

I guess it comes down to 'all this talk is nice, but if it is so bad, what are you going to do about it?' as my response. Join a lobby group, divert the time you spend here and devote your energy to political reform, run for office, start an armed revolt....? I like your drop the remote argument, that is so true for a lot of aspects wrong with our current way of life. But, couldn't that be taken farther to 'get off the internet' as well? If the answer to the 'what are you (meaning posters in general, not just Bob) going to do' question is little or nothing.... why are we talking about it?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Coup

"coup - a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force"
Certainly the elimination of the head of state, combined with the issues of conspiracy as well as the rapid change in direction afterward can fit that definition.

The evidence is available in that video series, as well as at many sites on the net. To repost here, now would be redundant.


Again, the comparison to Rome exists in that assassination is just as much a part of our world today, as it was then. Recent changes authorized by W now are reported to authorize the CIA to do just that...assassinate. The tacit approval of the US for the actions of Israel in their own illegal activities is only part of the current problem.
(Any other nation that assasinates, denies UN inspectors or Red Cross personel is censored. In the case of Israel, -WE- take the heat...not right, IMHO)

As to what I'm doing about things....more than most, less than some.
- Raising public awareness of issues
- Researching and exploring alternative sollutions and historical comparisons.
- etc

What am I not doing?
- Calling for force of arms
- Calling for revolution
- sending my sword to my senator with sapuku instructions.
- etc.

Today, talk, public debate, and intelegent discussion are the way.
Not force of arms.
My kung fu just aint good enough to tackle a Main Battle Tank yet....

:asian:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

BTW - I have been seriously considering a run for office....haven't decided if I'm -that- nuts yet....

I'll let y'all know if/when I do.
(please make sure the tomatoes are ripe, not over ripe.....and bring salt please!)

 

[loki09789]

Coup

"coup - a sudden and decisive change of government illegally or by force"
Certainly the elimination of the head of state, combined with the issues of conspiracy as well as the rapid change in direction afterward can fit that definition.


:asian:

Definitions are lovely, but coup means that the violence was done by someone with the motive of assuming power, therefore you are dodging a direct answer to my question: Who do YOU think did it if it was a Coup? If you don't have a single suspect, who are your suspects? Using terms like evidence and fact instead of data/information points to opinion. "they say" comments aren't what I was asking, and "I don't have the answer" stuff is a dodge.

As far as office running, go for it. I wouldn't throw tomatoes, I wouldn't even be on the grassy knoll , I would be sitting on my couch, with a cholesteral loaded WHopper with extra death and supersized Saterated heart disease fries thrown down my gullet, washing it down with a synthetics swollen caffiene drink, in my "wife beater" white tank top and my boxers flipping through the channels with my remote in hand.... bitching at the television but refusing to vote

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Who did it?
The shooter on the grassy knoll had ties with organized crime. The shooting was done as a combined effort between members of the mafia, the VP's staff, the CIA and factions in Dallas itself. I find the evidence from the video series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" to be especially convincing, especially "The Guilty Men" which centers on LBJ. "The Smoking Gun" also is an interesting look at the evidence and its tampering.

 

[loki09789]

Who did it?
The shooter on the grassy knoll had ties with organized crime. The shooting was done as a combined effort between members of the mafia, the VP's staff, the CIA and factions in Dallas itself. I find the evidence from the video series "The Men Who Killed Kennedy" to be especially convincing, especially "The Guilty Men" which centers on LBJ. "The Smoking Gun" also is an interesting look at the evidence and its tampering.

I have said this before to put conspiracies into perspective: How is it that on one hand gov. is SO inept that the budget can't be balanced, that military campaigns are failures, that social needs are ignored....as well as the fact that with a minimal cast of characters involved in the Clinton/Lewinski scandal it still got exposed, how on earth could a conspiracy of this JFK magnitude be kept under wraps for so long?

It is very interesting to me that on one hand, gov. and officials are inepts and stupid at doing it right, yet at doing it wrong they are pros.

So, you are saying that LBJ masterminded the JFK assasination - even though he aloud himself to flub the foriegn diplomacy and success of the vietnam war?

Please, if they were that good at coordinating and conspiring, they would be consumate politicians and our country would be a well oiled machine.

 

[Tgace]

Just seems to me that this is all too closely linked with the current administration, which admittedly isnt leaving a great legacy....nobody seemed to care/espouse this @#$% back when Clinton was in office. Like Phil said, the pres. will change, the world will turn...all this seems tainted with political leanings, leading me to doubt any verifiable link to history "repeating itself". A la...Y2K, End of the World, Armageddon etc, we were closer to the "Fall" during the Civil War than we are now. So where on the "historical timeline" are we?...."There is no fate except that which we make for ourselves".

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have a small list of interesting things about the Clintons and their associates...how a person who was handcuffed with their arms behind them, shot in the head and then run over by a train...his death was ruled a suicide.... (WTF??) The Clintons aren't any better than the Bush's.... Its just that Bush's handlers are dragging things down, removing the good things that Billy did, while accellerating the harm and adding their own harm as well.

Like I said...its the next few -decades- that count...not a few meager years.

As to the conspiracy stuff....there is a difference between moral and political 'smarts' JFK had numerous affairs yet that didn't matter as his political focus was the key points. Why are LBJ's writings locked away for decades? Why did a 'secret' party purchase and bury the recent documentary that pointed to massive internal conspiracies by LBJ and others to remove the Kenedys from power? (Yes, Robert too?)

Secrets do exist within the government. To blindly believe that they told us the truth is IMO at best nieve and at worst flat out stupid.

Plots within plots, schemes within schemes. Of course Sadamn had WMD...W has his daddys and Ronnies reciept books for proof. We won't get into the wasted resources and lives caused by Clintons forign blunders...but American blood was spilt in Africa and Europe on his call... They all seek to enrich themselves....why else do they spend millions for a 100,000 a year job? (Though I think it was raised to a mil. after slick-willy left the orface....)

The truth is we do hold the keys to the future....the question is...what don't we know, and who is hiding it?

The truth is out there Scully.....and it's not wearing a toga this time.

 

[Tgace]

Just when were things "good"?? And when did they start going "bad"...All this is "politics"... been that way since the dawn of civ. Now Im not saying its hopeless, we should do what we can to improve things, but the "sky is falling" rant is unproductive and adgenda pushing through fear....

 

[Tgace]

Ive read some political authors that make a closer comparison (IMHO) to the British Empire of Victoria than the Roman Empire...ours is much more an economic/cultural empire than it ever has been a military conquest one.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Now, returning to the idea that the US is a modern day Rome and heading down the same paths...here are some others opinions:

CON-From 2004 : http://noble.cbnoble.com/archives/001108.html

PRO-From 2001: http://www.nationalinvestor.com/Experts-McIntosh.htm
Same info, different link: http://www.gold-eagle.com/gold_digest_01/mcintosh052801pv.html

Another discussion on this same topic is found here:
http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/16585/99543


In short, I can see similarities, and differences. Depending on what you are looking for, you will find the pro and the con. Mostly, I found some good solid history and some good solid BS in those links.

Hail Caesar, and pass the croutons!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Just when were things "good"?? And when did they start going "bad"...All this is "politics"... been that way since the dawn of civ. Now Im not saying its hopeless, we should do what we can to improve things, but the "sky is falling" rant is unproductive and adgenda pushing through fear....

I agree.

When things were "good" depends on your own perspective. I often hear older folks lamenting how it 'used to be'. I also often hear teens and collage kids ranting about things that they know almost nothing about and haven't really looked into past a few soundbytes. (All the War for Oil morons for example who missed the part where we'd have been better off attacking Canada not Iraq for oil....)

All I can say is that the American people need to wake up, open their eyes, do some serious research into the issues and then get out and vote and speak and march so that their voices are heard. The silence is too often deafening.

Rome fell due in part to the apathy of its people and the abuses of their leaders. The US is seeing record high apathy in its people, and the abuses of its leaders are being revealed. That is the comparison. The question is, is there still time to figure out the ills, cure them and move on? I think so, but I'm one voice. More will be needed, even those that disagree.


Side Tangent: Bush as Caeser?
http://www.counterpunch.org/grossman12192003.html

 

[Tgace]

Was there a time in our history (that can be proven) where the population did "care", where everybody voted and was involved in the system? Or is it like the "crime rate" issue, where its debateable that crime has gone up, we just have more reports now where people didnt report in the past???

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Good points....that info I don't have.
What I have read is that of those eligible to vote, recent elections have been showing a decline in those who actually do. At this time, the majority of the population is allowed to vote....where in the past gender and skin tone were against you. In the past, people fought for the right...now, fewer and fewer seem to be using it.

Crime stats....thats a bit different....
Yes we have higher reported crime...we also have higher populations. So, is the percentages per 1000 population changing, or just the reports? To really get the facts, we would have to cross refference alot more data than most stats groups care to deal it, I think.

 

[Tgace]

Good points....that info I don't have.
What I have read is that of those eligible to vote, recent elections have been showing a decline in those who actually do. At this time, the majority of the population is allowed to vote....where in the past gender and skin tone were against you. In the past, people fought for the right...now, fewer and fewer seem to be using it.

Dont misunderstand me..im not saying the US is perfect and lets all wave the flag and close our eyes....Im just trying to point out that our situation isnt any worse/or less political than it was during the revolution, the war of 1812, civil war (big close call there), WW's, 9/11 etc....to say we are following a linear trend like a Roman Empire Timeline....I cant accept it as anything more/or less than a model of human behavior, like Paul M. said, comparisons could probably be made (by somebody more learned than me) to any other political model.

Crime stats....thats a bit different....
Yes we have higher reported crime...we also have higher populations. So, is the percentages per 1000 population changing, or just the reports? To really get the facts, we would have to cross refference alot more data than most stats groups care to deal it, I think.

Lies...d#$%n lies and staistics . Theres a big gap between perceived crime and actual crime...abduction-murder is one of the rarest of crimes, but everybody freaks out when the media trots out an example and everybody acts like they are next. FBI stats state crime in general has been dropping with exception to some individual crimes. But our fascination (and the medias) with crime lead many to live in fear. Get the book "The Gift of Fear" by (spelling probably wrong) Gavin DeBecker...great book on the topic and a good source for self-defense related info like threat indicators and ways predators select and set-up victims.

 

[Tgace]

I also often hear teens and collage kids ranting about things that they know almost nothing about and haven't really looked into past a few soundbytes. (All the War for Oil morons for example who missed the part where we'd have been better off attacking Canada not Iraq for oil....)

Are they any different from the "hippy" generation of the 60's? That generation which is now in power? I question the attitude of "fight the power" it should be more "fix our nation" in tone IMHO....

 

[michaeledward]

I have been away from my DSL for a few days ... and I have been trying to avoid jumping in on this conversation ...... but, I failed.

Just a quick point to make here

Pax Americana is following in the footsteps of the ancient late Roman republic. Some of the information that supports this...

3. Satallite nations set up militarily as part of the Empire. This was justified with the argument "we are showing them a better way of governing themselves...(analogous to democratizing) Has anyone ever read PNAC?

upnorthkyosa

This on tonight's CNN website.

U.S. MAY HALVE FORCES IN GERMANY
The Pentagon has drafted plans to withdraw as many as half of the 71,000 troops based in Germany as part of an extensive realignment of American military forces. Some defense analysts fear it goes too far.

Gee ... we have 71,000 soldiers based Germany, almost 60 years after conquering that nation ... hmmm ....

Mike ..

P.S. The President's salary in the original Constitution, I believe was $200,000.00 per year. It was recently raised to $400,000.00. And the reason they run is to get the babes ;-)

 

[Tgace]

I have been away from my DSL for a few days ... and I have been trying to avoid jumping in on this conversation ...... but, I failed.

Just a quick point to make here


This on tonight's CNN website.

U.S. MAY HALVE FORCES IN GERMANY
The Pentagon has drafted plans to withdraw as many as half of the 71,000 troops based in Germany as part of an extensive realignment of American military forces. Some defense analysts fear it goes too far.

Gee ... we have 71,000 soldiers based Germany, almost 60 years after conquering that nation ... hmmm ....

Mike ..

P.S. The President's salary in the original Constitution, I believe was $200,000.00 per year. It was recently raised to $400,000.00. And the reason they run is to get the babes ;-)

Yeah but that was a result of WWII, not conquest ambitions. We stayed so long due to the Cold War and fear of Soviet expansion into Europe. I think its time to get out of Europe but inertia plays its part...

 

[michaeledward]

Yeah but that was a result of WWII, not conquest ambitions. We stayed so long due to the Cold War and fear of Soviet expansion into Europe. I think its time to get out of Europe but inertia plays its part...

And somehow, you think that the 'forward deployment' of US Military personnel does not qualify as a 'satellite nation'?

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20021021&s=hartung

Mike