The Existance of Chi

[7starmantis]

Exactly, the "power" in chi is from proper execution, not from proper definment. If someone lacks power or chi in their technique, it is not from a lack of understanding of chi, it is from a lack of proper execution of said technique.
Its like saying someone who doesn't know the chinese terms for kung fu and the punches, who doesn't know the history of kung fu, who has absolutely no knowledge on what kung fu is about, could not practice kung fu. Thats simply not true. There are many who have more book knowledge about kung fu than my Sifu, but few that could best him in fighting or technique.

7sm

 

[Kodanjaclay]

My sifu is fond of telling me how much more practice I need. I think that is the key. Work more, and intellectualize less. Bottom line is that our understanding comes from the hard work and sweat we put in. There is a lesson I teach, and that lesson is that simply because you pay a few measly dollars for my class, or anyone elses class, that does not entitle you to the wisdom of the Orient. Only when you pay REAL tuition (blood, sweat and tears) and have tasted bitter, have you truly begun to pay tuition and are on the way to learning.

 

[Makalakumu]

A definition is more then a label. A definition defines the finite. In other words it describes the phenomenon including its limitations. I will make the point again about the four fundamental forces in the universe.

Electromagnetism is defined and has proven wholley useful to civilization in general. Television, radios and computers are a direct product of its definition.

The weak nuclear force is defined and has been a boon and a bane of civilization. We use it generate power and we use it to blow stuff up.

The strong nuclear force is also defined. This force is unleashed during nuclear fusion. In the future, this may become more useful because of its definition.

Gravity, on the other hand, is partially defined. Humans know (sort of) how it works. They think they know where it originates, but it hasn't been observed yet. We understand gravity on large levels, but that understanding breaks down at the quantum level.

Imagine what the world would be like with a full definition of this force? What if it could be harnessed and used for our benifit. Space travel becomes more possible as a result.

Chi. This concept is partially defined. I hear it described as technique. I hear it described as energy. I hear it described as power (which is different then energy) It has proven its usefullness. Accupuncture works. So does accupressure. I have seen it work in my tai chi class and have felt myself using it. I even go to a TCM doctor every once and a while. This is absolutely fascinating to me because I always approach these mystical topics with skepticism and so far, Chi has passed these personal tests of mine.

I am not arguing whether or not it exists. I am only trying to say that we do not know everything that it can and cannot do. There are so many misconceptions flying around about this topic. Its frustrating. For instance, imagine using chi on a widespread basis to heal sickness. Imagine using chi on a widespread basis to deal with mental health issues. What it ADD can be treated with accupuncture or pressure? Maybe a combination of points, manipulated in a certain way, can be taught to parents - replacing the use of ritalin?

The Old Ways only describe it partially or we would see more of the above. There is some liturature out there regarding this, but I haven't been able to find it. Chi exists, humans know something of that existance, but not all, or even mostly, in my opinion.

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
My sifu is fond of telling me how much more practice I need. I think that is the key. Work more, and intellectualize less. Bottom line is that our understanding comes from the hard work and sweat we put in. There is a lesson I teach, and that lesson is that simply because you pay a few measly dollars for my class, or anyone elses class, that does not entitle you to the wisdom of the Orient. Only when you pay REAL tuition (blood, sweat and tears) and have tasted bitter, have you truly begun to pay tuition and are on the way to learning.

I agree, in the dojang, work more, talk less. Sweat builds instinct.

Outside...scholarship is part of the Moo Duk Kwan. TSD demands this type of questioning and thinking. In fact, Hwang Kee was one of the first to describe TSD techniques with the old ways and the new - physics. (according to his book)

I believe this duality gives us a better description of MA.

 

[Kodanjaclay]

I don't know if he was one of the first. Certainly he is the first I know of who made this information public. Otherwise you would have had to study physics yourself.

Scholarship however, has always been a part of martial art. The ancient chinese had a standard they ascribed to called the Scholar-Warrior meaning that one had mastered both pen and sword. That is the way it should be.

How long have you studied MDK?

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by Kodanjaclay
How long have you studied MDK?

Eight years. I'm working on my sam dan in between taking care of my family. Sigh. Its not like it was in the old days with the four hour workouts!

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
A definition is more then a label. A definition defines the finite. In other words it describes the phenomenon including its limitations.

The strong nuclear force is also defined. This force is unleashed during nuclear fusion. In the future, this may become more useful because of its definition.

I can agree with everything you say except on these few points. Nothing becomes more usefull because of its definition. We become more aware of it becasue of its definition, but the defined does not change. I think you are putting just a little too much infasis on defining chi. Your speaking of using chi for medical purposes, its allready done. The lack of a concrete definition hasn't stoped it from being used.

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Chi exists, humans know something of that existance, but not all, or even mostly, in my opinion.

I agree, however, us not knowing all of that existence hasn't stoped us from receiving the benefits of its existence. Your saying that if we define it, we can harness it and use it more. Thats not true, a definition doesn't allow us to do more with something, just helps us communicate what we are doing better.

7sm

 

[Kodanjaclay]

At Sam Dan level, and this is just my opinion, class itself is not as important for you as personal practice. I'm not suggesting you don't go to class, but I am suggesting that you work out more on your own. Four hour training can be done, and you can still take care of your family.

I wish you the best luck on your trip to Kodanja.

 

[donald]

I don't believe in chi, or ki. I believe Jesus Christ gave us the strength we all have in us. Not being a medical practioner of any kind. I can only surmise that this energy is a biological phenomenon. As far as the hocus pocus that is involved in these "demonstrations". I think its all trickery of some sort, but as always this is just one guy's opinion.

Respectfully,
Donald

 

[MA-Caver]

I don't believe in chi, or ki. I believe Jesus Christ gave us the strength we all have in us. Not being a medical practioner of any kind. I can only surmise that this energy is a biological phenomenon. As far as the hocus pocus that is involved in these "demonstrations". I think its all trickery of some sort, but as always this is just one guy's opinion.

Respectfully,
Donald

Don, chi does exist in the sense it's the "...energy field created by all living things..." (to quote a well known Jedi:jedi1. However the "chi" shown on shows like dragon ball z and American Ninja movies and stuff like that... nah, I'll side with you on that one.
Faith does help enhance the chi, belief in ones self and being aware of the inner-strength which we all have (read: light of Christ). Being in touch with one's self and one's inner-self can help locate and identify the energy (chi) that is within us. We can channel it and use it to our advantage.
But sometimes we're not always aware of it. Example: A friend I know was having a particularly hard day and their kids were not helping out with running around, getting in the way, fighting, not coming to dinner when told and then finally just being obnoxious at the dinner table. Having enough my friend "lost it" and smacked (not hard) a dinner plate on the table as in "that's ENOUGH!". The plate shattered to a zillion pieces. By all rights it should've just cracked in two.
When my friend related the story to me I told them that they had, because of the enormous stress from the earlier portion of their day and the stress that the kids were putting on her and all the little things that accumilated throughout the day, their emotional build up tapped into their "chi" and channeled it down through their arm and the energy pulverized the plate.

We're a lot more powerful than we realize (overall) and it's in wisdom that our creator had to make those of us who earnestly search for it work for it. Same with brain power.

 

[Ninway J]

I don't believe in chi, or ki. I believe Jesus Christ gave us the strength we all have in us. Not being a medical practioner of any kind. I can only surmise that this energy is a biological phenomenon. As far as the hocus pocus that is involved in these "demonstrations". I think its all trickery of some sort, but as always this is just one guy's opinion.

Respectfully,
Donald

I don't know if you could describe the miracles in the bible as "hocus pocus" or "demonstrations", but if one believes in those miracles, then one should not have any problem believing that chi had a part in those miracles, or apart from that, chi could be used to perform miracles even now-days.

 

[someguy]

I don't know if you could describe the miracles in the bible as "hocus pocus" or "demonstrations", but if one believes in those miracles, then one should not have any problem believing that chi had a part in those miracles, or apart from that, chi could be used to perform miracles even now-days.

Unless God goes beyond chi.
This thread is still going wow.

 

[donald]

N.(may I call you N. ?),

Although I am not an evangelist, or Biblical studies major, I can read fairly well. Biblically speaking, all the miracles performed in the bible were done through the power of GOD. Not by any power originating in, or from man. As recorded in the Holy Scriptures, "by Him we live, and move, and have our being" New Testament, The Book of Acts chapter 17:verse 28.. As I stated previously. I am not a subscriber to the theory of chi/ki as taught through Eastern philosophy. And I do not describe the miracles of GOD as "hocus pocus".

Respectfully,
:asian:

 

[7starmantis]

Just to throw in as devil's advocate (no punn intended) the Bible also says we are made in the image of God does it not? So who are we to say that the miracles that humans in the bibile did were not dealing with chi?

Just wanted to throw that in.
7sm

 

[someguy]

If we are going to go into God we should first determine which religion is the true religion. Ok thats not going to happen.
Lets ask this what proof is there for and against chi? Any cold hard facts for either side.
Can anything ever be truely defined? Is human communication so perfect that we can full define anything with mere words?

 

[Ninway J]

I can forsee that this subject of chi and the Bible can, and might be, debated intensely simply because people have many different conceptions about chi. People also have many different conceptions and interpretations about the Bible. Throw these two together, and look out!

When my sensei taught us about chi, he said that chi has many names in different cultures. For instance ki (Japanese), chi (Chinese), mana (Hawaiian), prana (middle-east Indian), and the Holy Spirit (Christianity), are all the same thing.

However, if you ask an evangelical christian regarding the Holy Spirit, he would say that the Holy Spirit isn't chi because chi is described as an impersonal force, and the Holy Spirit is not an impersonal force, but a person.

Then you ask the Jehovah's Witnesses about the Holy Spirit, and they will say that it is only an impersonal force emitted from God, so it could be called chi.

Taoists believe that chi is an impersonal force emitted from The One, which created the ten-thousand things, including the gods.

These are just a few examples.

 

[7starmantis]

I think chi is absolutely void of religion. I don't think there is anything spiritual about it in any sense, pure biology/physics in my book.

But thats just me...

7sm

 

[Han_Tsu_Ki]

I think chi is absolutely void of religion. I don't think there is anything spiritual about it in any sense, pure biology/physics in my book.

Through my own practices I have drawn the conclusion that chi is not something that can be explained by means of religion or science. Chi can only be experenced through actual training and combat. If you had to put a scientific tag on it, then it would be similar to adrenaline however chi can be focused where adrenaline cannot. When you are in a fight for survival then the existance of chi becomes apparent and you feel, for lack of a better word, 'alive'. I have studied the flow and movement of chi and I am certain that it does indeed exist, however you must practice and train a lot to aquire the proper understanding.

 

[Cruentus]

Oh...and one more:

I see a lot of pseudo science and faulty logic in this thread that is laughable. The reason is because we don't have a provable, adequet means of explaining it. So some people try to take the religion angle, using Biblical references to try to prove the existance of Chi (which seems silly to me), others use science to go through the possabilities of what Chi might be (seems the most logical way to go to me), and other try to say "it can't be explained by science" (which I believe is a cop out).

Here, say this with me, "We are not sure exactly how to explain or characterize chi yet, but we do know that it exists." Don't worry guys...no one is going to think that your less of a chi master if you admit that you don't know certian things about it. :wink1:

Also, keep in mind, if Chi is a physical force, then yes, it is measurable by science. Sorry to steal the mystic thunder from some of you. If it is a force that effects this physical world, then it must be observable and measurable by science, even if we haven't figured out a way to observe and measure it yet.

PAUL
:hammer: (bringing the reality hammer)

 

[Kodanjaclay]

Paul,

I would ask you to keep an open mind. Certainly there are those who would use such mysticism to harm others, but keep in mind, only 100 years ago where we were with science. Science will be the first to tell you it does not know everything. And so far as medical science goes, ever heard of the term ideopathic? It means unknown source basically. For example, ideopathic scoleosis is scoleosis from an unknown cause.

Perhaps in the future we will know everything, but right now we don't. Science itself only considers things laws that appear unimpeachable, and under certain circumstances, those unimpeachable things suddenly take on new meanings, or alter themselves. Ever heard of frozen light? Did you ever think it would be possible to stop light? [An excellent article on this appears in scientific american].

Also, Bioelectrical energy has been studied and I believe quantified. Qi just means energy. So how is it that they are exclusive. We don't know they are. Like I said, there are some superstitious people out there, but don't wholesale disregard something because we don't have data to validate it. We may simply not have a means of quantifying it yet.