The Existance of chi / ki

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by SThiess
Just because you cannot proof it scientifically, does not mean that it does not exist. This is one of the biggest misconceptions of man kind. The whole chinese medicine is based on the principle of CHI and it has proofen itself in the meantime that it works. And there are also several different forms of CHI. Without chi you would not be alife. Scientists are able to show the existance of CHI but till today that have no clue where it comes from and how to scientifically proof it's existance. The best thing is just to accept things and not to proof them all the time.

I disagree with your last sentance particularly. I think that the success of acupuncture and acupreasure "proves" the existance of Chi. I don't think we should just "accept things" though, other then for the time being. Our inability to measure Chi only speaks to our limitations in science. But that doesn't mean that science will NEVER be able to measure Chi....things come in time.

I think its good for us to try to learn more about things...

PAUL

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by PAUL
I think that the success of acupuncture and acupreasure "proves" the existance of Chi.

Acupuncture and Acupressure prove nothing about chi. There is no way to distinguish these effects from the placebo effect. If scientists were able to measure a change in an energy field in response to point manipulations, this would be better data. So far, no study that I have seen has been able to do this.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Acupuncture and Acupressure prove nothing about chi. There is no way to distinguish these effects from the placebo effect. If scientists were able to measure a change in an energy field in response to point manipulations, this would be better data. So far, no study that I have seen has been able to do this.

I watched (on Television) a brain surgury take place in Japan. The patient was awake and communicating the entire time; they used no anastetic other then acupuncture to redirect the electrical energy so that she wouldn't feel pain.

Now, if we want to distinguish these effects from a placebo, I guess we could cut into someones head without anastetic and w/o acupuncture, but we could only TELL them that it won't hurt. Would you like to volunteer your skull for the experiment...cause I ain't voluntering mine!

Acupuncture has been proven to "work" by the use of placebo in different Western Universities, such as UCLA. Acupuncture is based off "Chi". Now although we can't accurately measure "chi", the fact that acupuncture can work based off the principle of manipulating this "unseen energy" proves that it at least "exists."

Dispite what a lot of people seem to be saying here, Chi is not just an "idea". Its a physical energy, that can be proven or disproven, and measured (even if we don't know how to yet measure it). Now I know this takes a lot of the mysticism out of the equation for some of you, so I apoligize for ruining the fantasy.

So, if you (any of you, not directed at one person) want Chi to be an infinite unprovable energy, fine with me. I'm sure you can see dead people, communicate telapathically, and fly around out of body at night too. I, however, prefer hard science to explain things (when possible and available). Hard science says that it exists. If you don't like it, take it up with the medical community.

(I am now waiting for someone to tell me that gravity and water are only observable ideas also...:shrug: )

PAUL

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
According to modern physics, there are four fundamental forces. There is gravitation, electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force. Could there be a force that physicists know nothing about (chi) or is chi one of the fundamental forces in disguise. Do people believe that this form of energy exists? Can anyone produce research that supports the existance of chi?

I will say this though...They aren't exactly sure if Chi is another force in disguise, or if it is it's own seperate force. They are still trying to figure that one out. So...does it exist...yes. Is it a seperate force from what we have already discovered....don't know yet.

Now...I am of the PERSONAL OPINION that it is a seperate energy outside of what physicists have categorized. I say this because we know how to measure these other energies, yet we can't yet measure Chi. If it was one of these other energies (or some kind of combination) "in disguise" then we would be able to measure it, I would think, no? Since we can;t yet measure it, this makes me think its something different.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by albert
Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1

this is chi.

Absolutely! Hey...I felt it through my computer screen; if Chi is only an idea then hey, who could tell me I'm wrong?

Good Chi Demo albert! :rofl:

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by PAUL
I will say this though...They aren't exactly sure if Chi is another force in disguise, or if it is it's own seperate force. They are still trying to figure that one out. So...does it exist...yes. Is it a seperate force from what we have already discovered....don't know yet.

Now...I am of the PERSONAL OPINION that it is a seperate energy outside of what physicists have categorized. I say this because we know how to measure these other energies, yet we can't yet measure Chi. If it was one of these other energies (or some kind of combination) "in disguise" then we would be able to measure it, I would think, no? Since we can;t yet measure it, this makes me think its something different.

This is pure conjecture, but if you have read anything about Chaos Theory, the concept of Chi is very reminiscent of the self ordering property inherit in material objects of the universe. I'm not sure if this could be classified as a force.

I'm of the opinion that Chi is the electromagnetic force in disguise. Your example about brain surgury above neatly supports this explanation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Force = Mass * Acceleration. OR FMA

Force has a direction. Energy is either Kenetic or Potential.

Chi is the Potential Energy inside someone. When it is expressed it becomes Kenetic Energy, and this force is felt.

Now, this force has more effect then then standard F=M*A Kenetic energy. The Sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts when measured separately.

Just My Opinion and approach to understanding

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
This is pure conjecture, but if you have read anything about Chaos Theory, the concept of Chi is very reminiscent of the self ordering property inherit in material objects of the universe. I'm not sure if this could be classified as a force.

I've read about Chaos theory, but I am having trouble making the connection. Wouldn't there have to be a force of some kind behind material objects allowing them to "self order"? I think you'll find that there is as far as we know.

I'm of the opinion that Chi is the electromagnetic force in disguise. Your example about brain surgury above neatly supports this explanation.

Fair enough...we'll have to see what Science comes up with! :asian:

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Force = Mass * Acceleration. OR FMA

Force has a direction. Energy is either Kenetic or Potential.

Chi is the Potential Energy inside someone. When it is expressed it becomes Kenetic Energy, and this force is felt.

Now, this force has more effect then then standard F=M*A Kenetic energy. The Sum of the whole is greater than the sum of the parts when measured separately.

Just My Opinion and approach to understanding

That is a good explaination of how.

I am very curious about the "what" part, though. Electromagnetic, Nuclear, or some "new" type of bioelectricity that we can't yet measure? I lean towards the latter.

PAUL

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by PAUL
I've read about Chaos theory, but I am having trouble making the connection. Wouldn't there have to be a force of some kind behind material objects allowing them to "self order"? I think you'll find that there is as far as we know.

Chaos theory describes a property in nature that is self ordering. I would think that this could be a force, but the theory itself describes it as "order in randomness." As far as its link to chi, this is a nice way to describe how chi could be in "everything" and it could also explain how chi is suppose to be the force that "keeps us alive." Some other things about this do not make sense though. How could a property be manipulated or "channeled" for instance.

Upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by PAUL
I am very curious about the "what" part, though. Electromagnetic, Nuclear, or some "new" type of bioelectricity that we can't yet measure? I lean towards the latter.

Any bioelectricity would be electromagnetic energy. A new type of energy would be "life force" what ever that could be. Perhaps there is a fifth fundamental force that we know nothing about. If anything, I would say a candidate would be the self ordering property of chaos theory. "The self ordering force"

Oi, my head hurts. Too much sparring and not enough blocking.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by albert
Reverse punch KIAIII!!!1

this is chi.

No, it is "yi" - intention, which directs chi. And I'd rather direct my chi through my hand than my mouth.

And also, "being in the groove" is "kung fu" -- not "chi".

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by MisterMike
... Ki has about as much relevence as religion. In some cultures, the two are intertwined.

And religion IS relevant. See my article in this month's magazine issue.

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
If chi exists, it should be possible to study it with the scientific method. If it exists, it should be possible to make in empirical. If chi exists there should be a way to detect its presence outside of the human experience. Perhaps a chi-tector or something ...

Kirlian photography for starters, and a lot more equipment is out there now.

But the premise that if something exists, it must be measurable scientifically, gives WAY TOO MUCH credit to Western scientific method.

A very limited framework, indeed.

 

[TonyM.]

According to my physicist friends the four powers mentioned in the first post are all the same. Forms of electromagnatism.

 

[Phil Elmore]

Religion is not a tool of cognition.

 

[Cruentus]

Originally posted by upnorthkyosa
Any bioelectricity would be electromagnetic energy. A new type of energy would be "life force" what ever that could be. Perhaps there is a fifth fundamental force that we know nothing about. If anything, I would say a candidate would be the self ordering property of chaos theory. "The self ordering force"

Oi, my head hurts. Too much sparring and not enough blocking.

Chaos theory is an explaination of how things "in nature" "self order," but it does nothing to explain to us "what" that force might be. It finds patterns, but it doesn't define physical forces. I would go with the idea that it could be electromagnetic energy if this question could be answered for me: Why can't we measure "Chi" (if it is an electromagnetic force) when we can measure electromagnetic force?

If Chi is a type of bioelectricity that is not electromagnetic, then that crushes our idea that all bioelectricity is electromagnetic, eh?

 

[Makalakumu]

Originally posted by TonyM.
According to my physicist friends the four powers mentioned in the first post are all the same. Forms of electromagnatism.

It is theorized that when the equations for "Quantum Gravity" are complete (if that ever happens) they will show the four forces combined into one. Otherwise, this is nothing but conjecture.

I, too, think that many manifestations that we label as chi are really just electromagnetism. Other, though, fit a self ordering property in the universe - ie...chaos theory. Who says that chi has to correspond to only one thing that science can describe? Maybe our understanding of chi has placed a label on something that is fragmented and complex?

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by Sharp Phil
Religion is not a tool of cognition.

It's not supposed to be.

And science is not a good tool for finding meaning in people's lives. All the empirical data in the world means nothing until it is seen in a larger context. Scientific facts by themselves are neutral, and therefore not very helpful in understanding who we are.

Try cutting water with a knife or picking up air with a spoon. Or as the angel said to Daniel "Measure me a bushel of wind or a pound of fire." And Einstein said, "Religion without science is blind; Science without religion is lame."

These aren't just cute quotes -- what I am getting at is simple. Truth is not limited to science, and meaning is what you apply to science, theology, and any other tools (as that is all they are). Scientific truths can be dealt with scientifically, and spiritual truths can be dealt with theologically (or philosophically, etc.). Use the right tool for the right job. Better yet, acknowledge all disciplines and studies for what they are, and use them all accordingly.

If your intellect is confined to one framework, especially if it is merely Western (or Eastern) scientific method by itself, you will forever be in denial of one reality or another, or rather many realities that we experience in life.

I can go through countless everyday examples of how chi seems to defy the laws of physics, simply because those "laws" are not "designed" to help one understand what is undeniably being experienced. They must be understood in a different framework of understanding the world.

I hate quoting myself, but to avoid going into a dissertation to clarify all the arguments for and against chi, seriously -- check out my articles in Martial Talk magazine, especially the first two in the series on "The Reality of Chi" (July & August 2003).

 

[Ken JP Stuczynski]

Originally posted by PAUL
... Why can't we measure "Chi" (if it is an electromagnetic force) when we can measure electromagnetic force? ...

Chi IS measurable with scientific equipment. A couple of years ago, they actually discovered electromagnetic energy flowing through the body in specific paths.

"Coincidentally" the paths were identical to the chi meridians in Chinese medicine.

<sarcasm> But of course, it must not have existed before then because no one could PROVE what the Chinese knew for millennia. </sarcasm>