The Essence of your kung fu

[hoshin1600]

鸣/míng: (of animals and birds) cry, call; make sound.

Dunno why people call this "whooping". Do you Anglo-Americans describe the sound of crane like that? I think Patrick McCarthy uses the term "Whooping Crane", maybe the whole term originates from him.

Also, "Yongchun Baihe" in Fuzhou dialect is "Eing Cung Bak Houk". However, Fuzhou dialect belongs to Eastern Min language group, whereas Yongchun village area might be in Western Min, so this comment has basically zero value

i think the name can be irrelevant to translate. its like saying oinking pig,, some will argue a pink doesnt oink it snorts.

 

[DaveB]

I'll use a three-tiered approach borrowed from Japanese Koryu to describe Bak Mei. It has levels of hyoho, tenouchi and waza; or, Strategy, Skill and Technique, thus moving from more abstract to more concrete.

On strategy level, Bak Mei aims to break the opponent's structure by forcefully disrupting an incoming attack and then entering close range. And then, dunno, maybe finish them?

On skill level, the line of attack is linear and almost straight up, with little sideways movement to enter (yet such movements are still found in forms); this is one distinguishing feature between Lung Ying and Bak Mei. Both hands are kept close to centerline, usually in a tiger claw posture (initial position for Mo Kiu, rubbing bridge). Shoulders are not squared, however, but in a very slight angle approximating 15 degrees. Power generation comes through sagittal flexion and extension of the spine. The training of forms aims to produce short power or inch power, which is called "scared power" in Bak Mei. This power can be utilised in several ways upon contact with incoming attacks, thus we do not aim for sustaining bridges for extended mounts of time. Main method of footwork is sliding, alternating steps occur only occasionally.

On a technique level, there are four main directions of technique (Sei Biu), sink-float-swallow-spit. There are different hand techniques that use different directions for different goals. Either hand hardly ever goes to a chamber either at the ribs or the waist, and in forms most attacks are executed with the right hand with the left hand mostly just clearing the way and making openings. Kicks only occur with the right leg (since stance is most of the time left leg ahead). Some (but not all) lineages use the classification of "Baat Sek" or "eight techniques" to deal with attacks, there's a video series on YouTube of them if you are interested.

That's a great description. Some of the bak mei videos I've seen are very reminiscent of the Tiger-crane I've done.

 

[DaveB]

I found this great instructional video on Fijian White Crane. It's interesting to observe what my styles founder thought was worth keeping as well as the parallels with wing chun.

 

[VPT]

Pretty darn good video, judging by the sections I had a glimpse on. You could actually learn and practice a whole lot of stuff from there. However, the video is mistitled. This is not Yongchun Baihe or 12 Sections Power (or I did not see they perform that form), this is actually Wing Chun.

 

[VPT]

Ah-ha, I got some tiger-crane footage in my hands. Seems like general Fujian/Hokkien material to me, not necessarily so much Hakka-ish...

 

[hoshin1600]

this is Yong Chun white crane.

 

[hoshin1600]

there are many variations of fujian crane and tiger/ crane styles. there are fujian styles that were not even officially named. from what i understand they were just "local" styles that sometimes borrowed a popular name like white crane.

 

[VPT]

Personally I am aware of at least following crane styles of Fujian ancestry: Yongchun white crane, singing crane, feeding crane, flying crane, shaking crane/ancestral crane (apparently same style, former is Taiwan lineage, latter mainland Chinese), monkey crane, Great-Ancestor-turned-crane and Arhat-turned-crane. This tiger-crane seems like on of such hybrid styles. I see some Taizu/Wuzuquan influence (or similar) as well...

 

[DaveB]

Pretty darn good video, judging by the sections I had a glimpse on. You could actually learn and practice a whole lot of stuff from there. However, the video is mistitled. This is not Yongchun Baihe or 12 Sections Power (or I did not see they perform that form), this is actually Wing Chun.

Interesting, there are a lot of differences to the wing chun I've seen. Are you able to understand the Chinese or do you just recognise the style in the video?

I expect FWC to resemble the wing chun as I'm led to believe that the crane in wing chun is literally chopped down FWC.

 

[VPT]

I read Chinese well enough to confirm that the video is titled "Yongchunquan", "Wing Chun Kyun" in Cantonese. I'm gonna take a better look at that clip tonight, but I can't see any mentions of cranes anywhere. In the meantime, here's a form from Baihe you might appreciate: The Twelve Sections Power form, that was in the title of the Wing Chun video:

Performer is Lei Kong, the famous Crane teacher from Hong Kong. Interestingly, this shares many, many similarities with the Tensho form of Goju-ryu karate. It was introduced to the style after the style founder Chojun Miyagi returned from his martial arts study trip to China (after his previous master in Okinawa having passed away). He claims the form as his own invention. So there might be a link between Baihe and Tensho, like him having seen it or someone having learned some baihe and taught his version to Miyagi, or whatever. Direct contact with Yongchun Baihe is not necessary by any means.

 

[DaveB]

I read Chinese well enough to confirm that the video is titled "Yongchunquan", "Wing Chun Kyun" in Cantonese. I'm gonna take a better look at that clip tonight, but I can't see any mentions of cranes anywhere. In the meantime, here's a form from Baihe you might appreciate: The Twelve Sections Power form, that was in the title of the Wing Chun video:

Performer is Lei Kong, the famous Crane teacher from Hong Kong. Interestingly, this shares many, many similarities with the Tensho form of Goju-ryu karate. It was introduced to the style after the style founder Chojun Miyagi returned from his martial arts study trip to China (after his previous master in Okinawa having passed away). He claims the form as his own invention. So there might be a link between Baihe and Tensho, like him having seen it or someone having learned some baihe and taught his version to Miyagi, or whatever. Direct contact with Yongchun Baihe is not necessary by any means.

Thanks for the correction. That style of wing chun looks to have covered some of the concerns people had about its more commonly seen sibling, like use of circular strikes and covering distance.

 

[VPT]

Ah-hah, this seems to be solved. It seems that DaveB's video is official Chinese government-designed "wushu-Wing Chun". Didn't know that existed. Looks like they've scrapped the old forms, made six levels into it that can be performed both as an individual and paired forms... and added Nike sports wear.

 

[hoshin1600]

Ah-hah, this seems to be solved. It seems that DaveB's video is official Chinese government-designed "wushu-Wing Chun". Didn't know that existed. Looks like they've scrapped the old forms, made six levels into it that can be performed both as an individual and paired forms... and added Nike sports wear.

not the first time the Chinese government had a controlling hand in martial arts. seems to be a constant reoccurring theme.

 

[DaveB]

Ah-hah, this seems to be solved. It seems that DaveB's video is official Chinese government-designed "wushu-Wing Chun". Didn't know that existed. Looks like they've scrapped the old forms, made six levels into it that can be performed both as an individual and paired forms... and added Nike sports wear.

Sinister yet awesome.

 

[Nobody Important]

Is this a hung-gar derivative, or something from Fujian crane? I've also heard of an Omei white crane but I know nothing about it, including whether it is a legitimate system or something that was created in the US as a quasi-Chinese-ish martial art.

Omei Crane is legit. Just another name for Tibetan White Crane, generally in reference to village versions which are mixed with another art like Pak Mei, Wing Chun etc. Woo Ching's version would technically be considered an Omei derivitive. As a term it became popular with the Shaolin Do people who attached the label to their "version" of white crane and the history of crane being developed in the west, it definitely isn't the same.

 

[VPT]

Omei Crane is legit. Just another name for Tibetan White Crane, generally in reference to village versions which are mixed with another art like Pak Mei, Wing Chun etc. Woo Ching's version would technically be considered an Omei derivitive. As a term it became popular with the Shaolin Do people who attached the label to their "version" of white crane and the history of crane being developed in the west, it definitely isn't the same.

In all honesty, I don't believe in the existence of any genuine "Emei/Omei/Ngomei Bak Mei" - as a hybrid of White Crane and BM, at least. Everything that is Bak Mei comes eventually from CLC post-1920s. If there was such a thing, it would be a very recent creation.

 

[Nobody Important]

I read Chinese well enough to confirm that the video is titled "Yongchunquan", "Wing Chun Kyun" in Cantonese. I'm gonna take a better look at that clip tonight, but I can't see any mentions of cranes anywhere. In the meantime, here's a form from Baihe you might appreciate: The Twelve Sections Power form, that was in the title of the Wing Chun video:

Performer is Lei Kong, the famous Crane teacher from Hong Kong. Interestingly, this shares many, many similarities with the Tensho form of Goju-ryu karate. It was introduced to the style after the style founder Chojun Miyagi returned from his martial arts study trip to China (after his previous master in Okinawa having passed away). He claims the form as his own invention. So there might be a link between Baihe and Tensho, like him having seen it or someone having learned some baihe and taught his version to Miyagi, or whatever. Direct contact with Yongchun Baihe is not necessary by any means.

At 10 second mark it says Yongchun Quan Bai He (Wing Chun Kuen Baak Hok). Though, from what I seen in the clip I would have to agree it appears to be Wing Chun. Some mainland branches do consider themselves to be a derivative of White Crane.

Lee Kong's White Crane is technically 5 Ancestor Fist White Crane (Yongchun Wuzu Quan). It is 5 Ancestor Fist that focuses on Yongchun Crane to a greater extent than the monkey, tiger, luohan & Tai Zu material.

 

[Nobody Important]

In all honesty, I don't believe in the existence of any genuine "Emei/Omei/Ngomei Bak Mei" - as a hybrid of White Crane and BM, at least. Everything that is Bak Mei comes eventually from CLC post-1920s. If there was such a thing, it would be a very recent creation.

Correct, the villages around Lau Fu mountain mixed CLC' Pak Mei and other arts with Tibetan Crane back in the 40s & 50s. The Emei (Omei) designation was attributed due to the proximity to the temple and the Tibetan White Crane & Pak Mei oral legends associated with the temple, not necessarily actual real history.

 

[VPT]

Correct, the villages around Lau Fu mountain mixed CLC' Pak Mei and other arts with Tibetan Crane back in the 40s & 50s. The Emei (Omei) designation was attributed due to the proximity to the temple and the Tibetan White Crane & Pak Mei oral legends associated with the temple, not necessarily actual real history.

Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that. I am not aware of any extant Bak Mei lineage that far in the east. CLC is from Huiyang District in Huizhou, which is close to Mt. Luofu. However, he only started teaching Bak Mei in Guangzhou prior moving to HK and none of his students seem to have ever ventured that far out. (He was also very strict about not letting others teach his art. He was a greedy individual.) I think my teacher would know about it if there were.

 

[VPT]

Are you, by any chance, talking about the stuff that Doo Wai teaches?