the ESOTERIC part of martial arts ?

[Xue Sheng]

just out of curiosity does anybody have a link to anyone teaching occult / esoteric knowledge with in there martial arts training ?

In Chinese Martial arts :hmm: look to Wuxia and you will find it there.

Now the definition of Wuxia - Chinese martial arts fiction stories

Now if you are defining esoteric as

1 a: designed for or understood by the specially initiated alone <a body of esoteric legal doctrine &#8212; B. N. Cardozo>
b: requiring or exhibiting knowledge that is restricted to a small group <esoteric terminology>; broadly: difficult to understand <esoteric subjects>
2 a: limited to a small circle <engaging in esoteric pursuits>
b: private, confidential <an esoteric purpose>
3: of special, rare, or unusual interest <esoteric building materials>

Then a lot of Chinese martial arts can be looked at as historically esoteric.

As for occult if you are defining it as

of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies

Then no, not even historically...that is unless you go with Wuxia

Or if you are defining either esoteric or occult as you said here

esoteric like witch craft or occult rituals stuff like that

Again... Then no, not even historically...that is unless you go with Wuxia

 

[geezer]

Actually, Xue, most martial arts traditions do have an occult or "superstitious" side. The Chinese tradition of wuxia is not unique in this regard. Most cultures have legends of warrior heroes with super-human powers and abilities. And, to a certain degree, you can find some magical or "superstitious" thinking in many martial arts. In CMA it can range from the highly debated role of qi in various arts to the extremes of superstition and cult-like practices that lead to the deaths of hundreds of gullible fighters in the Boxer Rebellion who believed that their esoteric chi-gung practices would render them bullet-proof. A similar fate befell the Sioux "ghost dancers" at Wounded Knee who thought that their spiritual rituals would make them immune to the US Army's Hotchkiss machine guns.

On a far less extreme level, many accomplished warriors have been known to engage in "superstitious" rituals to psychologically boost their confidence. In the Filipino arts, many believed in "anting-anting", amulets or escapularios, reciting "oraciones" or special prayers or tatooing them on their bodies, and so forth. Similar practices are common to warriors going into battle everywhere. But it's not a substitute for practical martial training. More likely it's addressing the reality that no matter how well you train, fate may intervene. That is to say, sh-- happens.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Spirituality is woven into martial arts I believe simply because you cannot remove a cultural art from its context. Asian arts reflect eastern ideologies and western arts likely reflected western religious and spiritual views. Understanding the cultural context of the art helps one to understand why certain strategies or philosophies of combat emerged from different warrior groups.

 

[Uncle]

Spirituality is woven into martial arts I believe simply because you cannot remove a cultural art from its context. Asian arts reflect eastern ideologies and western arts likely reflected western religious and spiritual views.

I would agree that you cannot disengage an art from historical and environmental context but I disagree that religion has anything to do with it. Some Eastern arts, generally Chinese, tend to try to combine the two. But as example, Western cavalry and infantry and associated training were used during the crusades. Does that mean that Christianity really has anything to do with historical European martial arts? No. Similarly do most Eastern martial arts really have anything to do with Eastern religion? No, even though some of the principles may be similar, the same, or borrowed.

Understanding the cultural context of the art helps one to understand why certain strategies or philosophies of combat emerged from different warrior groups.

Yes, for example using weapons against armor vs unarmored opponents.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Actually, Xue, most martial arts traditions do have an occult or "superstitious" side. The Chinese tradition of wuxia is not unique in this regard. Most cultures have legends of warrior heroes with super-human powers and abilities. And, to a certain degree, you can find some magical or "superstitious" thinking in many martial arts. In CMA it can range from the highly debated role of qi in various arts to the extremes of superstition and cult-like practices that lead to the deaths of hundreds of gullible fighters in the Boxer Rebellion who believed that their esoteric chi-gung practices would render them bullet-proof. A similar fate befell the Sioux "ghost dancers" at Wounded Knee who thought that their spiritual rituals would make them immune to the US Army's Hotchkiss machine guns.

On a far less extreme level, many accomplished warriors have been known to engage in "superstitious" rituals to psychologically boost their confidence. In the Filipino arts, many believed in "anting-anting", amulets or escapularios, reciting "oraciones" or special prayers or tatooing them on their bodies, and so forth. Similar practices are common to warriors going into battle everywhere. But it's not a substitute for practical martial training. More likely it's addressing the reality that no matter how well you train, fate may intervene. That is to say, sh-- happens.

to simplify; He asked if anyone knew of anyone teaching the occult or esoteric side of martial arts...... answer no.... you will only find that in Wuxia these days

As for the rest, yes I know about the boxer rebellion and the practices of qigong, much of which I do not see as occult, esoteric yes, occult no.

However looking at the definition I supplied I can see how one would define it as such

 

[GrandmasterP]

Depends on who is doing it and why maybe.
Most TaiChi and QiGong players I know do so for health, fitness and a chance to get together for a cup of tea and a good gossip after class.
Some TaiChi and QiGong players are into that plus the whole esoteric shebang and man do they love to talk about that stuff!
The first sort tend to be much better company than the second.

 

[WaterGal]

Depends on who is doing it and why maybe.
Most TaiChi and QiGong players I know do so for health, fitness and a chance to get together for a cup of tea and a good gossip after class.
Some TaiChi and QiGong players are into that plus the whole esoteric shebang and man do they love to talk about that stuff!
The first sort tend to be much better company than the second.

I think even with the latter, there's a difference between people that do that kind of thing for inner peace/general spirituality and people that do it because they think it gives them some kind of special qi powers or whatever.

 

[GrandmasterP]

Exactly. If someone is enlightened or has all these Qi powers then why bang on about it so much?
I wonder sometimes if some are just trying to convince themselves by talking it up.
One thing for sure there's no shortage of books and DVDs on sale pitching the mystical side of cultivation.

 

[Aiki Lee]

- but I disagree that religion has anything to do with it. Some Eastern arts, generally Chinese, tend to try to combine the two. But as example, Western cavalry and infantry and associated training were used during the crusades. Does that mean that Christianity really has anything to do with historical European martial arts? No. Similarly do most Eastern martial arts really have anything to do with Eastern religion? No, even though some of the principles may be similar, the same, or borrowed.

The way I see it is that religion has a very strong impact on culture, so I believe religion has in some ways played a very important role in mindsets of the creators of specific martial arts. The way Aikido is practiced to day is very much reflective of Ueshiba's spiritual beliefs, though you do not have to have the same religious viewpoint as him to benefit from aiki training. In the West, there were some religious warrior groups like the Templars and the Knights Hospitalar. While any codified training in the groups may not have been influenced by religion, certainly the men who practiced them were and these beliefs would have affected how they viewed everything in the world including how to properly wage war.

 

[Buka]

The discussion depends on the definition of the word "esoteric". Or at least the agreed definition among those of us on the forum discussing it.

As for the "occult" part, F that nonsense.