The Difference Between DKI and RyuTe Kyosho Jitsu

[Makalakumu]

It certainly did in antiquity ... in the modern era the techniques were non-existent. When my Sensei, Steve Lorbach, retired and asked me to take over the dojo I saw an opportunity to reach back to the classical art and, with his blessing, that's what we did.

Lacking any kyusho knowledge we went looking ... it was easy to find DKI, Yang, Zwing Ming and others to help us fill in the missing information. During that search I ran into an old friend from High School days ... Chris Thomas (writes the DKI books with George and heads the Kyusho Jitsu Kenkukai), ever since I've been working with him to restore kyusho and other compontnts to our art. I've had conversations with and acquired source material from the guys at KI as well.

Kyusho transcends ryu and crosses all artificial boundries between arts. For instance, I've used quite a bit of Yang, Zwing Ming's tuite and cavity press material for interpreting our kata. When I told Chris, he laughed and said he uses Yang for ideas too.

Which branch of Shorin are you training? I'm curious, because we may share many of the same kata. If so, it would be nice to make a connection. My dojang isn't so far away from the Twin Cities. And my teacher is located in St. Cloud. We've all been on the same journey...

 

[Explorer]

Which branch of Shorin are you training? I'm curious, because we may share many of the same kata. If so, it would be nice to make a connection. My dojang isn't so far away from the Twin Cities. And my teacher is located in St. Cloud. We've all been on the same journey...

That's a really good question. My sensei told me his sensei used to claim Mastubayashi affiliation ... but his website now claims Kobayashi. However, our kata seem to lean more toward Matsubayashi ... so it is unclear. My sensei also said his teacher would often make changes to kata if they presented his sensie with any difficulties. We've spent the last 4 years ironing out THAT issue...

We formed a board of advisors some years ago that include Okninawan stylists and others to help us straighten things out. Since we do not clearly represent one of the traditional branches of the Shorin Ryu, and our lineage is somewhat hazy ... and because we don't want to misrepresent ourselves, we generally refer to our style as Shorin Ryu. If pressed ... Junan Shorin Ryu. This is a name we think helps seperate us from false claims of system or lineage.

I'm sure we do share many of the same kata you would be more than welcome to train with us whenever you are in town.

 

[pstarr]

Just for the record - Mr. Oyata is a friend of mine (although I'm a kung-fu teacher and not a practitioner of Okinawan karate) and I was there when Mr. Dillman first began learning with him and attended a national seminar. We warned Mr. Oyata not to teach Mr. Dillman much about Kyusho - but he did - and just as we feared, Mr. Dillman branched off on his own.

Mr. Dillman's method is different from Master Oyata's because his technique is not nearly as refined and he didn't develop the special kind of striking power necessary to affect some points.

 

[Makalakumu]

Mr. Dillman's method is different from Master Oyata's because his technique is not nearly as refined and he didn't develop the special kind of striking power necessary to affect some points.

Interesting. So, what you are saying is that the biggest difference is that Oyata's method and Dillman's method are matters of skill? Both use the same basic principles?

 

[Explorer]

The concepts are the same ... the applications can be very different. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

 

[Explorer]

Pstarr, Is Mr. Oyata teaching much kyusho these days? I've heard he spends more time with tuite (chin na -- my spelling is probably bad) now.

 

[DavidCC]

My teacher, Shawn Steiner, is hosting a Kyusho seminar in Omaha this weekend (6/10 - 6/11). He is part of Kyushio International, who split from Dillman because of philosophical differences in how the material sould be practiced and taught. KI focuses on workable, repeatable, dynamic applications of pressure point attacks. Sensei Gary Boaz (Aikido and BJJ) from Kansas will also be teaching. They will be covering Kyusho usage in striking and grappling situations.

You can get more details be calling the school at 402-493-4733 or by PM to me or see the flyer posted in the Events topic.

 

[pstarr]

I was there when Mr. Dillman attended his first seminar with Master Oyata. He ran around all day with a tape recorder, taking notes. Never spilled a drop of sweat because he never trained at all-

Mr. Oyata is a friend of mine and believe me, his skill is for real. He strikes with the blurred swiftness of a snake and you go down. It doesn't matter how large you are (he loved to hit the biggest guys in the group) and I never saw him fail. Not once.

Mr. Dillman went on to develop his own "method" and his technique has been known to fail frequently. Moreover, his technique lacks the subtlety that Oyata possesses. Oyata's blows are little more than a slight "bump" - and you're gone. Dillman sometimes has to resort to pretty solid strikes - which anyone could use and knock someone out.

Nowadays, I see Mr. Dillman's proteges doing seminars and talking about women having to strike one way because they're "yin" and men, being "yang" should do it this way... One of my students who attended a Dillman seminar could not be knocked out and was told that it was because he had his tongue in the wrong place...? To those familiar with the concepts of yin and yang and so forth, this is all a lot of malarkey but it does help fill up the wallet.

Oyata is most definitely for real but because of what Mr. Dillman did, he is not so open with his technique anymore. He's a piece of karate history that's still alive.

 

[DavidCC]

I've got a tape of Mr. Oyata demonstrating some kata bunkai. OMFG he looks like he could kill me with one finger. A "slight bump" LOL

I see Mr. Dillman's proteges doing seminars and talking about women having to strike one way because they're "yin" and men, being "yang" should do it this way... One of my students who attended a Dillman seminar could not be knocked out and was told that it was because he had his tongue in the wrong place...? To those familiar with the concepts of yin and yang and so forth, this is all a lot of malarkey

This I believe is the kind of thing that led to the creation of the Kyusho International group... to distance themsevles from that stuff.

 

[pstarr]

Mr. Oyata is as lethal as a habu snake (as per his nickname in Okinawa). When you attack him you may not even notice the imperciptible shift in his body and the "bump" you feel...until it's too late.

Converesely, Mr. Dillman's technique tends to be heavy and brutish. I think he learned some points from Mr. Oyata and then, in a rush to fill his wallet, he developed his own "methods" and idea - some of which are pretty new-age and crispy...and they don't always work.

Oyata never fails. Ever. Not once.

Although the points themselves have been taught secretly for generations, there is a second aspect of the art which I believe Mr. Dillman was never shown...the training method used to develop the special type(s) of striking power required to adversely stimulate these points.

This is why a boxer or anyone else (who's not developed this kind of striking force) can strike the points and not achieve the desired result. Some people hit the point and fail - and conclude that the whole idea is preposterous...

But the true art involves not only knowing the locations of the points (or "areas", since some of them are too large to be called "points") but also developing, through rigorous training, the special striking force which is required to stimulate them.

 

[Explorer]

It may be a mistake to assume too much. Mr Dillman's technique has become more refined over the years. And to be clear, George was working from the same scrolls Master Oyata was working from. Hohan Soken gave George the scrolls and set him on this path. Master Oyata kindly assisted.

That being said, the more esoteric stuff from DKI leaves me rather cold. Which is why I prefer training with Chris Thomas and the folks at the Kusho Jitsu Kenkukai.

BTW, the video I've seen of Master Oyata shows him using quite a bit more blunt force than the guys at KI or DKI technique for technique. I've also talked with people who have attended seminars with Master Oyata and were amazed at how hard he hit his uke. Angle and direction information is readily available in any competent acupuncture text book ... I've seen it work time after time. There may be a special sort of striking technique but so far I have no need for it.

 

[Makalakumu]

It may be a mistake to assume too much. Mr Dillman's technique has become more refined over the years. And to be clear, George was working from the same scrolls Master Oyata was working from. Hohan Soken gave George the scrolls and set him on this path. Master Oyata kindly assisted.

That being said, the more esoteric stuff from DKI leaves me rather cold. Which is why I prefer training with Chris Thomas and the folks at the Kusho Jitsu Kenkukai.

BTW, the video I've seen of Master Oyata shows him using quite a bit more blunt force than the guys at KI or DKI technique for technique. I've also talked with people who have attended seminars with Master Oyata and were amazed at how hard he hit his uke. Angle and direction information is readily available in any competent acupuncture text book ... I've seen it work time after time. There may be a special sort of striking technique but so far I have no need for it.

Sometimes a good and strong strike is exactly what is needed in order to make certain bunkai work against a resisting opponent. There should be no lasting damage in the end. Maybe a little bruising, but that is somewhat acceptable because it conditions the body. A student of Oyata Sensei told me that a good rule of thumb when it comes to bunkai is "no hurt, no down."

Seems like a pretty pragmatic philosophy for self defense.

 

[Explorer]

Sometimes a good and strong strike is exactly what is needed in order to make certain bunkai work against a resisting opponent. There should be no lasting damage in the end. Maybe a little bruising, but that is somewhat acceptable because it conditions the body. A student of Oyata Sensei told me that a good rule of thumb when it comes to bunkai is "no hurt, no down."

Seems like a pretty pragmatic philosophy for self defense.

I tend to agree. There is a saying in the Kyusho Jitsu Kenkukai ... "Blunt force trauma is my friend." I'm a BIG proponent of powerful strikes.

I also believe in the concept of touch. We utilize this concept when we're learning to apply PP techniques to head points specifically. We start gently and ramp things up until we can regularly give our uki a "buzz" with as light a strike as possible. This way we train targeting, angle and direction without doing unnecessary damage. By the time we can do it on a regular basis it's a simple thing to strike with more power and intent to incapacitate an opponent. I would think adrenal stress response would aid in the strikes power as well.

 

[truth_seeker87]

It may be a mistake to assume too much. Mr Dillman's technique has become more refined over the years. And to be clear, George was working from the same scrolls Master Oyata was working from. Hohan Soken gave George the scrolls and set him on this path. Master Oyata kindly assisted.

Okay, to ANYONE who happens to be reading this thread..this is not true...but don't take my word for it.
http://www.viewusedcars.com/smoka-usa/weakest_link.htm

Oyata sensei didn't work from scrolls. My teachers have told me he worked from training he had from two old men. They showed him how to break down Kata and understand anatomy, but then they left it to him to figure it out...not attend seminar after seminar in hopes of gaining some super knowledge

 

[DavidCC]

Sometimes a good and strong strike is exactly what is needed in order to make certain bunkai work against a resisting opponent. There should be no lasting damage in the end. Maybe a little bruising, but that is somewhat acceptable because it conditions the body. A student of Oyata Sensei told me that a good rule of thumb when it comes to bunkai is "no hurt, no down."

Seems like a pretty pragmatic philosophy for self defense.

My teacher likes to say "that won't leave a mark, but it will make an impression"

 

[truth_seeker87]

My teacher likes to say "that won't leave a mark, but it will make an impression"

I would agree with that statement..and that of your sig..