The Difference Between DKI and RyuTe Kyosho Jitsu

[Makalakumu]

There have been many threads dedicated to bashing DKI on MT. This is not one of them.

I have a book that Mr. Dillman wrote with Chris Thomas about kyusho jitsu and I have been informed that Mr. Oyata's work is greatly different from what is presented. I would like to discuss the differences in the systems of Kyusho Jitsu..ie philosophy, methods, techniques, etc.

Lets try to keep this discussion focused, civil, and productive. This is something in which I'm really interested...

upnorthkyosa

 

[DavidCC]

Thsi is a "not-very-qualified" response since I have only 2nd hand knowledge of either. But this is what I have been told:

With Oyata's RyuTe, he hits you ANYWHERE and you go down and question your ability to control your bowels.

With Dillman, he hits you somewhere very specific and you might get dizzy or black out.

I am studying with KI (Kyusho International) which is basically some guys who left DKI because they wanted a more practical approach. So I am not completely unsympathetic to Dillman... but I've seen footage of both and been hit by both and... ouch!

 

[thetruth]

George Dillman went to about 6 Oyata seminars with a video camera, Got a few charts etc and went home and started smacking people in his living room surrounded by beanbags and pillows. He eventually came up with what is now called the Dillman method of pressure point fighting.

It seems far more hit and miss the stuff he does and if it doesn't work with a tap he will smack you harder until either the pressure points or blunt force trauma create a result. He tried this with Rickson Gracie and nearly got his head punched in with people having to drag Rickson off him after smacking Rickson in the face. I have witnessed a number of high ranking DKI/KI guys in person and what they do is the same. Yes the KI has all those drills but the tippy tap basis of a lot of the techniques is totally ineffective. etc Oyata has genuine lineage to his family style in Okinawa but I have heard that his family style is different to what is taught in Ryu Te and only a relatively small number have access to those teachings.

I have only seen videos of Oyata and damn the dude hurts his uke with what seems like devastating effectiveness. And as far as revivals well a nudge with the foot is all you will get off Oyata basically telling you to suck it up princess and get up.

By the way this is not a Dillman bagging this is fact. The first part (about the video cam etc) was actually published in the biggest M.A magazine in Australia by my old instructor (who learnt off him) in an article about pressure points and Dillman.

Cheers
Sam

 

[Explorer]

Just a quick addition. Chris Thomas was a friend of mine in High School more than thirty years ago. We have since re-connected and I've been training with him for the past 4 or 5 years.

Just to clear some misconceptions ... Dillman was given a scroll by Hohan Soken and told it contained the keys to unlocking the systems. Soken also provided similar assistance to other karateka and told them they were to give assistance to Mr. Dillman if he ever asked. I could ask Chris about the taping of Oyata's seminars ... but I'd be willing to bet Mr. Dillman was simply researching the scrolls.

 

[Explorer]

As far as Oyata's technique being different ... the DKI guys who I've spoken with that have attended seminars with Oyata have said he's hitting pressure points ... often much harder than necessary. Apparently, some of the uke's end up injured.

I've also been told Oyata will show a technique one way ... then modify it slightly for effectiveness when he strikes his uke. But I've never seen Oyata first hand so I won't swear by it.

There are so many points on the body that it is a simple matter to simply use a different set than another guy and still get the results you want.

When we're training head points say ... we start very lightly and work up in intensity until we can regularly and reliably give our partner a "buzz". From there it's an easy matter to increase the strike a bit more to incapacitate our uke. This is as safe a way to learn as we can figure out.

Revival techniques are paramount. After striking someones pressure points in this way you must know how to restore the natural flow of the meridians. If you don't it can take 72 hours or more for your uke's system to regain equalibrium.

 

[Rich Parsons]

No disrespect but a few questions for clarification if I may. Note I have not trained in either and happend to be at an event with Dillman teaching as well as others.

As far as Oyata's technique being different ... the DKI guys who I've spoken with that have attended seminars with Oyata have said he's hitting pressure points ... often much harder than necessary. Apparently, some of the uke's end up injured.

Is it true that some of Dillman's students brought court cases against him as they have long term nerve damage for the number of times they had knock outs activated?

I've also been told Oyata will show a technique one way ... then modify it slightly for effectiveness when he strikes his uke. But I've never seen Oyata first hand so I won't swear by it.

Would you think this is to hide the technique? Or would you say this is to teach a basic first, but he does his level of understanding when he executes?

There are so many points on the body that it is a simple matter to simply use a different set than another guy and still get the results you want.

What results would one expect?

When we're training head points say ... we start very lightly and work up in intensity until we can regularly and reliably give our partner a "buzz". From there it's an easy matter to increase the strike a bit more to incapacitate our uke. This is as safe a way to learn as we can figure out.

I understand the warming up of nerve centers, but is I wonder as I do not see you, so understand my question, if you hit the head or neck hard enough the brain sloshes which causes a knock out or the buzz feel. This can also happen under rotational strikes when the neck runs out of travel room. There is also the compression of the spine. Do these count as PP strikes as well? Curious

Revival techniques are paramount. After striking someones pressure points in this way you must know how to restore the natural flow of the meridians. If you don't it can take 72 hours or more for your uke's system to regain equalibrium.

Is it possible for permanent damage?

 

[Makalakumu]

I've had the chance to speak to some practioners of RyuTe since I've started this thread and here is what I've got...

Atemi - these are strikes that cause the body to move or react in certain ways.
Kyusho - these are strikes to vital points that cause an extreme reaction in the body.

It doesn't sound like chi, meridians, and accupuncture points are used to explain physical effects. And if they are used, they are used to reference the body. I don't know much more then this and I could be misinterpreting what I think I know.

 

[Explorer]

Atemi - these are strikes that cause the body to move or react in certain ways.

**Technically, Atemi are strikes to any vital areas. They include pressure points, eyes, ears, nose, throad, solar plexus and groin. Reactions range from mild to extreme


Kyusho - these are strikes to vital points that cause an extreme reaction in the body.

**Kyusho speaks directly to pressure points located on the meridians of the body.

It doesn't sound like chi, meridians, and accupuncture points are used to explain physical effects. And if they are used, they are used to reference the body. I don't know much more then this and I could be misinterpreting what I think I know.[/quote]

**Pretty much correct ... accupuncture points help us map the body. They also give us angle and direction information to help increase the points effectiveness.

 

[Explorer]

No disrespect but a few questions for clarification if I may. Note I have not trained in either and happend to be at an event with Dillman teaching as well as others.

** No problem. As Master Thomas once said to me ... "You should be skeptical until the techniques are proven to you."

Is it true that some of Dillman's students brought court cases against him as they have long term nerve damage for the number of times they had knock outs activated?

** I've never heard this. But I'll call Chris as ask. He's never been hesitant to tell me anything.

Would you think this is to hide the technique? Or would you say this is to teach a basic first, but he does his level of understanding when he executes?

** Since I don't know Oyata, I can't really say. Some of the DKI guys, after speaking with him about it, have come to the conclusion it was to hide the technique.

What results would one expect?

** I've experienced everything from mild to extreme body reactions ... to dizzyness, headaches, brief loss of motor function and brief loss of conciousness.

I understand the warming up of nerve centers, but is I wonder as I do not see you, so understand my question, if you hit the head or neck hard enough the brain sloshes which causes a knock out or the buzz feel. This can also happen under rotational strikes when the neck runs out of travel room. There is also the compression of the spine. Do these count as PP strikes as well? Curious

** Going light is not to warm up the nerve centers ... it's to keep from hurting them needlessly. When properly applied, you don't cause concussion, compression or hyper extension. This is what I really like about it. A smaller, weaker person can have the same effect as a larger, stronger person. Last month at the KJK annual gatering in Madison, I watched a skinny 5 foot 6 inch man completely incapacitate a 6 foot 5 inch man. The big guy dropped like a bag of wet cement using the Gall Bladder Cluster on the forehead.

That being said, concussion is a great back up to pp strikes ... if you know what I mean. There is a saying at the Kyusho Jitsu Kenkukai that Master Thomas founded ... "Blunt trauma is my friend."

Is it possible for permanent damage?

** It's possible to cause permanent damage with blunt trauma by accident ... I would assume the same for pp techniques. I understand that repeated striking of the Stomach 25 point without the benefit of restoration techniques can result in an acid reflux state. I would assume the same for the other points.

I have a video of some medical testing that was done with George and several ukes. George would incapacitate them and wait while the doctors checked vital signs, blood pressure, blood oxygen levels, brain function, heart rate, etc ... once the levels were recorded, George would wake them up. A synopsis of the results is in one of the books, I think. But basically the ukes response looked rather normal. One observer mentioned that the response looked kind of like a system reset ... and they could find no alarming changes in the body's vitals.

These are great questions. Thanks for your patience and kindness.

Now ... an opinion of mine. I prefer to train with Chris Thomas rather than George Dillman. I've met George and he is a very nice man ... but I prefer Chris' teaching style. He's more like a college professor and I'm very comfortable with that. Perhaps it's because I approach the material the same way ... at least that's what my students say.

 

[Explorer]

I will have to learn how to handle the quotes bettter...

 

[Explorer]

OK, I've talked with Chris Thomas and he relayed the following:

He is unaware of any lawsuits, ever against George Dillman. There was a guy, years ago who published an article wondering if DKI was exposing itself to potential liability. That appears to be the source of the lawsuit stories.

Both Dillman and Oyata practice kyusho the same way. Dillman actually trained with Oyata for a brief period long ago and it was Oyata who promoted Dillman to 7th Dan.

As a side note, over the years some DKI folks have attended Oyata seminars and have been received warmly and asked to demonstrate some of thier techniques. The same is true for Oyata students who have occasionally visited DKI seminars.

*Gump Voice* "...and that's pretty much all I know about that."

 

[Rich Parsons]

OK, I've talked with Chris Thomas and he relayed the following:

He is unaware of any lawsuits, ever against George Dillman. There was a guy, years ago who published an article wondering if DKI was exposing itself to potential liability. That appears to be the source of the lawsuit stories.

Both Dillman and Oyata practice kyusho the same way. Dillman actually trained with Oyata for a brief period long ago and it was Oyata who promoted Dillman to 7th Dan.

As a side note, over the years some DKI folks have attended Oyata seminars and have been received warmly and asked to demonstrate some of thier techniques. The same is true for Oyata students who have occasionally visited DKI seminars.

*Gump Voice* "...and that's pretty much all I know about that."

Thank you for the follow up

 

[Rich Parsons]

I will have to learn how to handle the quotes bettter...

Not to hi-jack the thread but to hand quotes better one can do the following:

** Special characters in Quote " " So as to show them.

If you copy and paste in "["quote=Explorer']" at the beginning of each section you wish to separate then put "["/quote"]" at the end of each section it will appear in the quote box with the persons' name in the case yours being Explorer.

 

[Explorer]

Thanks for the help on the quotes, Rich. In what part of Michigan are you located? Chris suggested you could be set up to meet a DKI person in your area for further investigation.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Thanks for the help on the quotes, Rich. In what part of Michigan are you located? Chris suggested you could be set up to meet a DKI person in your area for further investigation.

You are welcome for the help.

I had the priviledge of meeting G Dillman his (ex?)wife (* Still married at the time *) and some of his guys who were ranging from 4th up to 8th.

George spent time with us as I am now asking questions, not challenging, just trying to understand. There was a neck strike that he had people lined up (* All Seniors *) to strike me and at least make me fuzzy or knocked out. They all gave a try including Mr. Dillman. On the second time through, this guy wound up to swing at me real hard. I stopped him and told him I agree that with that much force to the side of my neck just about anyone could knock me out.

I have heard of some local guys in South Michigan, but not in a big hurry to change my arts, I was just curious. Not trying to be a problem. Although is someone wanted to meet and discuss it over a beer say some day, I wuld be up for that.

 

[Explorer]

I had the priviledge of meeting G Dillman his (ex?)wife (* Still married at the time *) and some of his guys who were ranging from 4th up to 8th.

Last time I saw George, Kim was there too...last spring in Channahon Il. with Dusty Seale.

I have heard of some local guys in South Michigan, but not in a big hurry to change my arts, I was just curious. Not trying to be a problem. Although is someone wanted to meet and discuss it over a beer say some day, I wuld be up for that.

I'm sure someone would be more than happy to meet for a beer and answer your questions. I can check into it, if you like.

As I've alluded to, but not stated specifically, I train with the Kusho Jitsu Kenkukai and Chris Thomas ... but I'm still Shorin Ryu. I'm not even affiliated with DKI. If I were to choose affiliation it would be KJK -- if Chris would allow it. I haven't asked him, so I don't know.

It isn't necessary to switch styles at all. One of my friends in town runs a dojo that teaches TKD and Ryu Kyu Kempo ... no matter which curriculum you sign up for ... he'll be teaching you kyusho. Kyusho training applies to all styles ... that's one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. If you learn to interpret kata via blunt trauma, tuite, throwing and kyusho ... style becomes irrelevant.

This has really been fun, thanks.

 

[DavidCC]

We integrate the Kyusho ideas into our practice of Shaolin kempo.

My teacher, Shawn Steiner, is hosting a kyusho seminar on June 10th & 11th in Omaha. Covering Kyusho in stand-up and ground applications. PM me if you want to know more, everyone is welcome.

 

[Rich Parsons]

We integrate the Kyusho ideas into our practice of Shaolin kempo.

My teacher, Shawn Steiner, is hosting a kyusho seminar on June 10th & 11th in Omaha. Covering Kyusho in stand-up and ground applications. PM me if you want to know more, everyone is welcome.

Post it up in the Seminars and Events Forum.

 

[Makalakumu]

Last time I saw George, Kim was there too...last spring in Channahon Il. with Dusty Seale.



I'm sure someone would be more than happy to meet for a beer and answer your questions. I can check into it, if you like.

As I've alluded to, but not stated specifically, I train with the Kusho Jitsu Kenkukai and Chris Thomas ... but I'm still Shorin Ryu. I'm not even affiliated with DKI. If I were to choose affiliation it would be KJK -- if Chris would allow it. I haven't asked him, so I don't know.

It isn't necessary to switch styles at all. One of my friends in town runs a dojo that teaches TKD and Ryu Kyu Kempo ... no matter which curriculum you sign up for ... he'll be teaching you kyusho. Kyusho training applies to all styles ... that's one of the reasons I enjoy it so much. If you learn to interpret kata via blunt trauma, tuite, throwing and kyusho ... style becomes irrelevant.

This has really been fun, thanks.

Doesn't your branch of Shorin Ryu have its own kyusho teachings?

 

[Explorer]

Doesn't your branch of Shorin Ryu have its own kyusho teachings?

It certainly did in antiquity ... in the modern era the techniques were non-existent. When my Sensei, Steve Lorbach, retired and asked me to take over the dojo I saw an opportunity to reach back to the classical art and, with his blessing, that's what we did.

Lacking any kyusho knowledge we went looking ... it was easy to find DKI, Yang, Zwing Ming and others to help us fill in the missing information. During that search I ran into an old friend from High School days ... Chris Thomas (writes the DKI books with George and heads the Kyusho Jitsu Kenkukai), ever since I've been working with him to restore kyusho and other compontnts to our art. I've had conversations with and acquired source material from the guys at KI as well.

Kyusho transcends ryu and crosses all artificial boundries between arts. For instance, I've used quite a bit of Yang, Zwing Ming's tuite and cavity press material for interpreting our kata. When I told Chris, he laughed and said he uses Yang for ideas too.