The Degradation of Government Agencies

[michaeledward]

I can only say that this is horrific.

The actions reported in this link, by the Stark County Police Department, seem to be a symptom of the nature of government since 9/11. That which should be unacceptable is justified.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2008/...assaultive-strip-search-on-an-innocent-woman/

Hope Steffey’s night started with a call to police for help. It ended with her face down, naked, and sobbing on a jail cell floor. Now, the sheriff’s deputies from Stark County, Ohio who allegedly used excessive force during a strip search 15 months ago face a federal lawsuit, and recently released video won’t help their case.

 

[Archangel M]

How 9/11 enters into this is beyond me. If you have experience in LE/Corrections and can explain to me the differences before and after go for it, but my money is on the "I hate Bush so everything bad is his fault" reason.

Many jails require some prisoners to remove their clothes if they are a risk of hanging themselves with them. Theres a lot of "he said she said" going on here. And why would the LEO's be taping themselves if they didnt believe they were justified in what they were doing?

And lastly, if you think you can make a judgement like that solely off the "facts" listed in that story, its worse than I thought. Theres obviously a lot more to this story that what I saw there.

 

[Cryozombie]

Although the sheriff's policy requires officers conducting any strip search to be of the same sex, the sheriff contends that the tactic used on Steffey was not actually a strip search. He also questions the validiy of the events leading up to Steffey’s arrest.

Ummm... then why was she stripped? They don't seem to have an explination for that.

 

[michaeledward]

Our society has changed drastically since the summer of 2001.

One example of this is the Federal Government's abandonedment of the Fourth Amendment; monitoring all telephone and interent traffic in the country, without the Constitutionally required warrant.

Based on the video clip and article, it would seem the governmental authorities in Stark County Ohio believe violating their own policies is appropriate; and that strip searches are appropriate in the event of a 'disorderly conduct' charge.

That the officers feel their actions are justified is the issue.

How many horrific acts can we see in history in which the authority felt justified?

 

[Archangel M]

BTW. Im not saying that these cops were "right". But to say that this is a "symptom of the nature of government since 9/11". Smells like a broadbrush political grudge more than anything else.

 

[Archangel M]

Proof? Your word??

Dude you apparently havent worked in LE or corrections. Things in the 70's-80's would have your head spinning. Or even in the Sainted Clinton administration.

 

[michaeledward]

Ummm... then why was she stripped? They don't seem to have an explination for that.

A question was asked of the young lady, "have you ever felt you wanted to hurt yourself". To which she answered, apparently in a sarcastic tone "now or ever". That was, apparently, sufficient to remove all her clothing, so that she could not hang herself in the holding cell.

(Please replay the song "Alice's Resturant" in your own mind, at this point)

 

[michaeledward]

but my money is on the "I hate Bush so everything bad is his fault" reason

The choice of language is, however, a quick way to say, "this allegation should be discarded. The person raising the point has an obvious bias, and therefore, all his arguments should be dismissed."

This is a classic demonstration of an 'ad hominem falacy'.

BTW. Im not saying that these cops were "right". But to say that this is a "symptom of the nature of government since 9/11". Smells like a broadbrush political grudge more than anything else.

So, we see the quick backpedal.

 

[Big Don]

Our society has changed drastically since the summer of 2001.

One example of this is the Federal Government's abandonedment of the Fourth Amendment; monitoring all telephone and interent traffic in the country, without the Constitutionally required warrant.

I know you aren't stupid, but, damn boy, you say some staggeringly stupid things.
The population is about 300million. There are about 500 million telephones, cellular and landline in the country. IF (note the big if) each one were used for only one minute per day that would be 500 MILLION minutes to monitor. There are only 1440 minutes in a day, just how many people do you think the government has listening to phone calls?
The Fourth Amendment (The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.) does not, by the way, apply to foreign nationals beyond our borders. You also might want to scream and wail a bit about the Carnivore program that the Clinton administration instituted and ran, without warrants, or, was that OK? The Fin FISA stands for FOREIGN...

 

[Cryozombie]

just how many people do you think the government has listening to phone calls?

To be fair to Mike (yeah yeah I know, I dont usually ever side with him) there are software programs to do that kind of monitoring... you need a lot less people with that sort of thing going on... although I agree its probably not EVERY call. Could be, I suppose... but I doubt it.

 

[Tez3]

The monitoring of ALL calls, text messages and emails is actually very easy. They aren't listened to or read individually though, it's done electronically, what happens is that certain trigger words are programmed in and if then used alert the 'watchers' who can then trace the originator. It is easy for computers to do this, no one actually sits and listens anymore, very old fashioned. Your country does it here at RAF Menwith Hill which is actually an American Base and we do it in GCHQ Cheltenham plus some other places. .
http://explorer.altopix.com/map/2f8462/1/291/Menwith_Hill_Listening_Station.htm?order=d

 

[Big Don]

How exactly is the behavior of a locality's police force related at all to the federal government? Answer: It isn't, but, your personal hatred of the Bush administration colors everything you see. Are you going to blame Bush the next time you get a speeding ticket, too? What we have is a woman in an excited situation who GAVE THE WRONG ID to the POLICE. That, from a layman's view, could look suspicious... Then, after she or the cop realized that wasn't her ID, she started acting MORE irrational. Driver's licenses and State issued ID cards, are, by the way, the property of the state, not the person whose picture, etc is on them, therefore, the officer was under no legal obligation to return it to her. What is interesting is that a Google news search for "Hope Steffey" turns up only FOUR articles, while a Google search turns up over 700, most of them to liberal blogs and sites such as the Democratic Underground and the RonPaulforums. Could she have been in the wrong? The articles say she was. What was the reasoning behind the police's actions? We don't know, because the Stark County Police Department is making no effort to try this case in the press or in the blogosphere.

 

[Big Don]

To be fair to Mike (yeah yeah I know, I dont usually ever side with him) there are software programs to do that kind of monitoring... you need a lot less people with that sort of thing going on... although I agree its probably not EVERY call. Could be, I suppose... but I doubt it.

Still, those programs work on keywords, so if you are discussing a history channel program about terrorism, and use the word "BOMB" further scrutiny is applied to the call, at some point an actual person's input has to be involved because computers have not advanced, AFAIK, to the point that they can understand context, tone of voice and usages. This is without mentioning the millions of people in the US who choose to speak a language other than English. Many of the smaller stores where I live are owned by people of Indian ancestry. Many of these people speak 5 or more languages, some, like Ken, down at the corner store, speak Arabic and Farsi, languages sure to garner attention when used.

 

[Tez3]

I think what Michaeledward is being too polite to say is that faeces travels down hill.

 

[Big Don]

I think what Michaeledward is being too polite to say is that manure travels down hill.

It surely does, however, Mikey is just a tad too eager to blame absolutely everything on the Bush administration.

 

[Tez3]

It surely does, however, Mikey is just a tad too eager to blame absolutely everything on the Bush administration.

Isn't that his right? It's a free country I've been told!

Ref the monitoring, trust me guys Big Brother really is listening in! You have no idea how advanced this places are!

 

[Archangel M]

Absolutely its his right. And complaining about it is my right too isnt it? Nobody is trying to stop him from saying what hes saying. Why is our disagreement a case of infringing on his rights? That seems like a fallacy to me.

Maybe hes right.

Rodney King

Abner Louima

Amadou Diallo

All cases of post 9/11...uhhh...never mind.

And nothing like this happened under Bills watch? Paugh!!

How do we determine if things like this are "different" after 9/11 and that we are not just looking at the same old thing with post 9/11 lenses on? The whole point of this thread is the implication that local LE agencies are practicing "brutality" because of Bushes post 9/11 policies and I say thats a load of crap.

 

[michaeledward]

Hey ... if I am just a crazy person who hates George W. Bush ... then we can ignore the atrocities that go on in our society. It really is so much easier than actually thinking.

Rather than discuss ... just attack.

 

[Bodhisattva]

Government has always been bad for the freedom of men. Government is based on the lie of authority. When men are strong enough to lead themselves, then government will have no power to lie and control.

It's been this way since long before 9/11. It just was never this blatant.

 

[Big Don]

Hey ... if I am just a crazy person who hates George W. Bush ... then we can ignore the atrocities that go on in our society.

Not at all, however, blaming one man for everything that has ever gone badly, is just a tad insane.

It really is so much easier than actually thinking.

Rather than discuss ... just attack.

How exactly is blaming Bush for what may or may not have happened in this case anything but an attack? We don't have all the facts and those who judge based on only one side of a story are no better than fools.