Make it a Sam Adams or a microbrew.
Take care,
Brian
Make it a Sam Adams or a microbrew.
Take care,
Brian
:deadhorse
Get my point?
Get my point?
I think that I need a few beers in order to view that dead horse a little more clearly.
:rofl:
Take care,
Brian
norshadow1
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Originally posted by WhoopAss
I understand your point of view on the Symposium thing. I just wanted to point out that the Symposium is not a problem solver. Some folks appear to give the impression that they think it does.
I just want to reiterate that all the debates is really going nowhere and is pointless for the reason that we are all with the groups that we are happy with.
Hey, I just posted for the 200th time !! Do I get a beer for this ?
Take care,
Brian
Debate is not pointless unless you have nothing to learn from it. Debate becomes pointless when it degrades to arguement rather that dialog. This happens when people stop listening and start insisting that their way is the only way. Questions that are not answered clearly or consistantly lead to more questions. All of this arguement and controversy makes people involved Modern Arnis look like crabs in a barrel.
The Symposium will not eliminate the problems plaguing Modern Arnis, and I don't think nobody realistically expects that. It would seen that more people share an optimistic opinion of the Symposium than do not, and it is a safe bet that everyone in attendace will come away from the event having learned something about Modern Arnis, themselves and each other. Not everyone will leave with a warm fuzzy, but that was often the case with many of the Professor's camps.
At the very least everyone there will have the opportunity to see the various "slants on Remy's art". If any of the instructors are full of baloney then that will be eveident to all. Conversely, if any of the instructors are truly outstanding it will be plainly seen as well. I would be prone to say that the "Symposium Bashers" do so because it wasn't their idea or an event that they just couldn't pull off in the first place. Hat's off to DocB for making it happen.
Yes, Renegade. We get your point. Perhaps you could reply with some more text rather than pictures.
Lamont
Originally posted by norshadow1
Yes, Renegade. We get your point. Perhaps you could reply with some more text rather than pictures.
Lamont
Sometimes less is more!
Chad,
Can I be nominated for the Half Position?
Paul,
Blah Blah BLah, I might agree,
Tim & Jerome, the Symposium will happen it will not resolve issues, it will allow people to train. I think we all agree onthis at this date and time. That might not be where it started, or what people hoped for, though.
David,
Patience is a virture. You wish that from us? You have much hope
.Waiting is . . . (* Fill in the blank *)
Brian, a micro brew might be in order.
Enjoy Training and Life
It is a passion for almost all of us here. Some of us epxress ourselves one way. Otheres a different way. This makes us individuals. Yet to have a place such as this to offer us the chance to discuss or debate, to me is worth it. JUst rememebre to go ride your bke or play with your kids or teach a class. What ever it is that takes you to your happy place .:asian:
OP
DoctorB
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Hello Daan,
Thanks for your support of my four main premises regarding the Symposium. Also, thank you for your expression of condolences.
The issues will take a long time to work out, but my immediate task is to get back on track with my life until more information is known.
Jerome
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DoctorB
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- #29
Hello Chad,
That has always been my primary position. It is well past the time to move forward. The Symposium is just ONE method for getting that forward movement going.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
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DoctorB
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The Symposium was never presented as resolver of problems or to change anybody's mind. The Symposium was orginally intended to put the contenders for leadership together at one time and place to give everyone in attendence an opportunity to see for themselves who really had the better and best skills in the art of Modern Arnis. That mission has passed and the emphasis changed over time. It is now an opportunity for people to come together, talk, share and exchange ideas. It was NEVER intended to replace any group or groups.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
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DoctorB
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- #31
Thank you for your support regarding the Symposium, David. This event is all about sharing. I will disagree on one point... it does matter if people left recently or a decade ago. Each had their own reasons for leaving.
You are correct, I did not "return" to compete with anyone for leadership in Modern Arnis... I didn't want it in 1994 and still do not want it today, 2003. I simply got tired of all of the trash talking about who was or was not a true and faithful leader in Modern Arnis. I got tired of reading posts about who had the skill and knowledge to teach the art "correctly". Therefore I proposed the Symposium concept. Ultimately only one "contender" stayed the course and agreed to participate. Therefore the Symposium mission was changed to "share and exchange". I actually like the latter format better. Some critics of the Symposium idea have not kept pace with the changes and are still re-acting to the past. The "art within your art" is very tantilizing. It leaves room for exploration and self growth.
"I think Jerome is sincere in trying to provide a forum for the different alternative arnis organizations. I regret that his Symposium is being portrayed as a confusium. At least a half dozen of those on the documents Professor left outlining the future board are on the instructors list Ive seen."
Well, well, well, I wonder just how many of the half dozen are also on Datu Kelly's list that was quoted from Real Fighters Interview, in another post some time back by Lamont.
The underlying idea of the Symposium at this point in
time is that Modern Arnis is greater than any single organizational interpetation. The fact that the instructor base has crossed over most of the major divisional lines should be viewed as an asset, not a liability. There will not be a new consensus leader emerging from the Symposium, but that was never a goal of mine in planning the event.
In most respects, this has been one of the most positive threads that I have seen on this forum since I joined. It is time for Modern Arnis instructors to actually lead by moving forward because this is in reality the "Post-Professor Era". Like it or not, the past can not be undone. The problems are still within the people who are doing the art. Therefore they have to step up, recognize where the problems lie, what the root causes are and resolve them. Sometimes, the recognition of root causes is painful, but once understood, change is much easier to make. The discussions and conversations of the Symposium will be as important as the instructional programs.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
I posted this quote as a separate thread but it applies here and the moving forward of Modern Arnis in it's next phase, the "Post Professor Era."
Greatgrand Master Ed Parker wrote:
When I am gone, I hope that people won't try to traditionalize my Art. I want you to always remember that Kenpo will always be the Art of Perpetual Change. If you remember this, then the Art will never become obsolete because it will change with the times. While the ignorant refuse to study and the intelligent never stop, we should always be mindful of the fact that our reward in life is proportionate with the contributions we make. A true Martial Artist is not one who fears change, but one who causes it to happen. To live is to change, and to obtain perfection is to have changed often. Progress is a necessity that is a part of nature. While it is true that casting the old aside is not necessary in order to obtain something new, we should study old theories not as a means of discrediting them, but to see if they can be modified to improve our present conditions. A word of advice, The humble man makes room for progress; the proud man believes he is already there."
Edmund Kealoha Parker Sr.
Yours,
Dan Anderson
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David Hoffman
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- Thread Starter
- #33
Originally posted by PAUL
:erg: :anic:
Just to add my 2 cents regarding little "grandmaster" Nanoy or Kevin.
When I had Professor over my house in 2000, he and my little 13 year old brother Jimmy were screwing around with the canes (no serious training) and Professor grinned at me and said, "Faulino, your frother is ver-y good! He will be the next Grandmaster!" Then we all had a pretty good laugh.
This backs up Mr. Hoffmans point.
Professor had a habit of saying things to make people happy, and he often didn't intend people to take his words, or even actions as gospel.
Jimmy isn't a grandmaster anymore then those other two kids. To claim successorship or Grandmastership based off of a non-serious, on-the-side comment is ridicules. I feel bad for young McManus and Nanoy in this circumstance. It is not their fault that they are being crowned a false prince by influences who should know better.
Oh well....more crap to clog the toilet, I guess.
:flushed:
__________________
"No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously..."
Some things should be taken seriously paul, respect is one example.
Once again I must distance myself from your statements and say I find your words very insulting and disrespectful. Yes, I realize that you were trying to agree with me and substantiate something I had said. However, your interpretation in way off the mark. It is also very emotive and insulting. You use words false prince , more crap to clog the toilet and ridicules by which I think you mean ridiculous. My post was meant to add depth and clarity to the idea of Carlos (Nonoy) becoming the next Grand Master, by no means am I holding the idea up to ridicule as you clearly are; you who admit no direct knowledge of the events discussed!
This was not a case of screwing around with canes as with your little brother. Nor was it a non-serious on-the-side comment as you, who were not present, imply. Carlos had made a sincere and passionate effort to be re-united with his Grandfather and to learn his art. Professor was very, very pleased with this and gave specific instructions relating to Nanoys training. Furthermore, when the statement was made, which Senior Master Roland, Datu Dieter, Datu Kelly and I all relate in much the same words, it was not during a casual playtime encounter, as was the case with your little brother. It was during a historic family reunion and reconciliation, something which Carlos himself initiated and I followed up on and made possible, as did Datu Kelly. This was worked on over a period of months of effort and serious consideration. Those who understand Filipino culture will know that succession in arnis often skips a generation. Thus, the grandson, not the son, is usually the one who carries the family lineage. This was, of course, true in Professors case. Professor was the first born Grandson. Nonoy is Professors first born Grandson. This is a position of authority and honor in Filipino families. I was clear in outlining that Carlos has a long road to live up to this birthright. If Carlos is sincere in wanting to learn and follow in his fathers footsteps, and I believe he is, then I for one will teach him all I know. This, together with what Nanoy can learn from the other Datus, Masters of Tapi-Tapi, Senior masters, and Filipino masters, should help him make up for not having been trained directly. It is unkind and unfair to hold Carlos up to ridicule.
I have told you before, Paul, that I admire your sincerity. You obviously want your voice to be heard. On these forums, the leaders are those post the most. Bob has asked me if you might interview me for an article on the Datus of Modern Arnis. If you want to have your ideas and words accepted, you will have to show some basic respect. Not just for your seniors, but for everyone, young and old. First and foremost, you must respect yourself and think before you post.
I ask that you not comment on my statements, either positively or negatively, unless you do so in a mature and respectful manner. And no Paul, Im not talking about age, Im talking about maturity, of which you are capable.
As regards to Professors grandson, the statement, so you will be the next Grandmaster? was made at a solemn family reunion and reconciliation during his final days. It was a very serious and solemn time. The statement, and it's implied nomination, holds both great promise and great challenge for Carlos. It does nothing to change Professors written leadership plan, but it certainly does add depth and potential to it.
Professor also made a very clear and meaningful gesture at this meeting:
He gave his grandson Carlos his Uniform!
Datu David Hoffman
norshadow1
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So what exactly was the Professors written leadership plan? There seems to be a number of different versions. As someone who "was there" you can enlighten us. A number of your posts seem to be of the "I've got a secret" type telling everyone that you have the information and will publish it shortly...but now is not the time.
Why not just put it out there and be done with it? What are you waiting for? There is a great deal of hearsay, speculation and spin circulating that it would seem necessary to open the books and set the record straight, if you do indeed hold the information that woud do so.
Lamont
norshadow1
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In regards to showing respect; I think that guys like Paul might be prone to show you some more respect if your posts were a bit more substancial and informative. Many times it seems as though you are condescending to address the Modern Arnis community and holding back information that should be out there for all to see.
It's just an observation, David. Don't take it personally. It just seems like you started out telling the forum that they "don't have all the facts" and when you are asked for the facts (politely or otherwise) you skirt around the issue and try to redirect the conversation. There's no need to talk in circles. If you know what they want to know address it. If you don't have the information say so.
Lamont
norshadow1
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In a great number of posts on this thread and a few others there is an agumentative pattern that Paul illustrated in one of his posts. I too have noticed "patterns".
I've noticed that many Modern Arnis "leaders" (by this I mean those that are in a position of authority in an organization) on this forum fall into one of three molds. The first is to talk in circles and attempt to redirect the conversation in another direction. The problem with that is a lot gets said but nothing gets accomplished.
Another is the "some people will never be satisfied with any answer, so it doesn't matter" approach. This train of thought gets even less accomplished because you're not just refusing to communicate, you're refusing to listen as well. Nothing gets heard, no communication occurs and nothing is resolved. It's not just stifling the communcation process. It's contrary the creative model of thought that the Professor modeled for us all.
The third is an approach is to "lurk" and occasionally communicate with a few words and some pictures. Why not just grunt and paint on the wall? Seriously though, at least this approach makes you the master of your unspoken word; by minimizing what you say you minimize the risk of saying something that you might regret later. It's a safe practice, but still hinders the communication process and makes it seem like you're afraid to say something.
Am I correct in assuming that this forum was created for the purpose of sharing information?
Lamont
I've noticed that many Modern Arnis "leaders" (by this I mean those that are in a position of authority in an organization) on this forum fall into one of three molds. The first is to talk in circles and attempt to redirect the conversation in another direction. The problem with that is a lot gets said but nothing gets accomplished.
Another is the "some people will never be satisfied with any answer, so it doesn't matter" approach. This train of thought gets even less accomplished because you're not just refusing to communicate, you're refusing to listen as well. Nothing gets heard, no communication occurs and nothing is resolved. It's not just stifling the communcation process. It's contrary the creative model of thought that the Professor modeled for us all.
The third is an approach is to "lurk" and occasionally communicate with a few words and some pictures. Why not just grunt and paint on the wall? Seriously though, at least this approach makes you the master of your unspoken word; by minimizing what you say you minimize the risk of saying something that you might regret later. It's a safe practice, but still hinders the communication process and makes it seem like you're afraid to say something.
Am I correct in assuming that this forum was created for the purpose of sharing information?
Lamont
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David Hoffman
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- #37
Hello Lamont,
I regret giving the appearance that I am holding a taunting secret. This is not my intention. The existence of the written leadership plan just slipped out in some words I addressed to Dan and Dieter. Then with all the questions I felt I had to give some advance information to justify my request for a little patience. For legal and fiduciary reasons I can not say more at this point. I have addressed this in detail in my earlier post. The courts in New England work frustratingly slow. This has been a difficult process full of delay and frustration! Presently, I am in the final stages and will soon be able to make this information public. Please understand, I did not intend to bring it up prematurely, it is similar legally to when a soldier is shot, the next of kin must be notified before the name is published. I am bound by similar rules.
As you say, I was there, and I do intend to enlighten you. As I have never taken a position hurtful to anyone in Modern Arnis, have no private agenda and am well known as Professor's close confident, I feel entitled to ask again for patience. You will also note: I have given up my active voting position in the Federation in order to be impartial when I address this issue. I would not do so if I expected much more delay.
quote:
Another is the "some people will never be satisfied with any answer, so it doesn't matter" approach. This train of thought gets even less accomplished because you're not just refusing to communicate, you're refusing to listen as well. Nothing gets heard, no communication occurs and nothing is resolved. It's not just stifling the communcation process. It's contrary the creative model of thought that the Professor modeled for us all.
Norshadow1,
I am the one who said this, so I guess your addressing me. I never said "so it doesn't matter", further, I'm not refusing to communicate. I am happy to do so if there is actually some communication. There needs to someone actually LISTENING for there to be communication. I am also willing to listen if the issue hasn't already been addressed, redressed, again and again with answers given clearly. Have you ever heard of "casting perl before swine"? As far as "it's contrary the creative model of thought that the Professor modeled for us all", he would also "not entertain the barking dogs" after a while.
As for the information David has, he has said that he is bound by LEGAL issues at the moment, several times. Again, for there to be actual communication, someone has to be listening. Give the man the time he has asked for. I am aware of what he is undertaking and it aint easy.
MAO
Another is the "some people will never be satisfied with any answer, so it doesn't matter" approach. This train of thought gets even less accomplished because you're not just refusing to communicate, you're refusing to listen as well. Nothing gets heard, no communication occurs and nothing is resolved. It's not just stifling the communcation process. It's contrary the creative model of thought that the Professor modeled for us all.
Norshadow1,
I am the one who said this, so I guess your addressing me. I never said "so it doesn't matter", further, I'm not refusing to communicate. I am happy to do so if there is actually some communication. There needs to someone actually LISTENING for there to be communication. I am also willing to listen if the issue hasn't already been addressed, redressed, again and again with answers given clearly. Have you ever heard of "casting perl before swine"? As far as "it's contrary the creative model of thought that the Professor modeled for us all", he would also "not entertain the barking dogs" after a while.
As for the information David has, he has said that he is bound by LEGAL issues at the moment, several times. Again, for there to be actual communication, someone has to be listening. Give the man the time he has asked for. I am aware of what he is undertaking and it aint easy.
MAO
Dan Anderson
Master of Arts
What about those of us who just answer the damned question straight away, Lamont. Don't just delineate the naysayers, lurkers and redirectionists as the only ones!
Yours,
Dan Anderson
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DoctorB
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- #40
Hello David,
For a number of people who have never gone through the legal details of handling a will and the probate process, there is always the notion "that something is not right." Given these key words from your reply to Lamont:
"For legal and fiduciary reasons I can not say more at this point. I have addressed this in detail in my earlier post. The courts in New England work frustratingly slow. This has been a difficult process full of delay and frustration! Presently, I am in the final stages and will soon be able to make this information public. Please understand, I did not intend to bring it up prematurely, it is similar legally to when a soldier is shot, the next of kin must be notified before the name is published. I am bound by similar rules. "
I believe that everyone needs to back up and just wait. There is a "legal gag order" that accompanies probate procedures in most if not all states, so it is necessary for those wanting answers to wait a bit longer.
It is also imperative that the pertinent comments of Paul, Lamont and others with regard to many promises being made, many titles being issues and too many conflicting accounts about what was allegedly said by Professor, has to be recognized and acknowledged.
It does not do anyone any good to try and pretend that Professor did not engage in making conflicting statements. That is precisely part of the problem that contributes to the dis-unity in Modern Arnis. Totally unity will never be achieved, but the divisons are harder and more rigid than they need to be and Professor played a major role in creating those divisions. A number of people know the truth from their own experiences and they will acknowledge it privately, but never publicly.
The will's contents will be helpful to some people but it will undoubtly open another can of worms for some others. Good luck, David, because you have unenviable burden of announcing the details of Professor's will. The messenger is always at risk of being among the first causualties.
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.
