Thai Bare Knuckle

[Fede]

I asked my teacher about the swordmaker in the north and he said he is still active. He even showed me the new swords he got from him and they were beautiful and light, but very robust.
He added that the man who makes the sheaths and the ropes that are typical of daab Lanna is also still active.
One among the interesting things is that if you don't give details about the sword you want to the swordmaker, he will make it following his feeling. An artist indeed.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Thanks, Fede for checking with your teacher on the swordmaker. Its good to know he is still alive and crafting swords. I would definitely like to pay him a visit in the near future.

 

[destructautomaton]

greatinfo and help as always--

 

[destructautomaton]

have a quick question i watched all the vanishingflame bare knuckle fights dvds what i wanted to ask about was grappling how much is allowed also i see one chaiya instructor talks much about grappling since what he talks about is in serious question on other cites how much of it is still therenad active?

 

[Fede]

Years ago I asked the same question to my teacher, who learned with khru Tong and he told me that there are no ground techniques in Chaiya. You can throw or make the opponent trip but once on the ground there are no Chaiya techniques.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Yes, its just more confusion laid on by the muay chaiya instructor trying assert he has knowledge of all things. The topic of grappling really bothers me because he has been telling lies about this very topic for some time. He states he taught grappling or ground portion of fighting since the early 90s which is a complete and utter lie. When I was in thailand living and training full time, I taught grappling classes for a small group on the weekends at national stadium. We taped several layers of cardboard to the ground so we could work. He said he was teaching grappling way back then but he couldnt and he didnt because several of the guys training with him came and stated he did not because they really wanted to learn to work on the ground and they joined the group. In the class, they did know nothing about the ground because it was evident. When the first vale tudo came and the call went out to ALL chaiya people and other thai martial arts, they refused to enter and some of the actual guys sat in the audience saying they didnt have any grappling level so they couldnt enter. So you can go ahead and call me a liar but there is proof not only in videotapes time/dated stamped of all of this and also a log of progression. In recent years, they came back around trying to demonstrate their grappling but it was rudimentary and had many holes in the game and well below basic blue belt level.

The second most important thing is that this instructor knows nothing about the history of grappling especially in se asia. He uses texts he gets from books and translates them then desperately tries to reconstruct from a limited knowledge base of thai martial arts and even more of old style grappling that once existed in the region. He cobbled together a grappling program from his students training with others, videotapes and his own limited knowledge. Nothing wrong with this but his understanding of history is bad and often skewered. I often question now the validity of anything he says since its mostly self serving and nothing to move ahead any type of research or understanding of ancient thai martial arts. What he is teaching and talking about is a re-imagining or a reconstruction just based on books and no actual training in the subject which is fine long as you say so. To mislead people and to distort history is plain wrong.

To understand what once existed as he says he does and is bringing back, you would have to a rudimentary knowledge of grappling or old wrestling like that of india, mongolia, etc. You would i hope have trained in burma, cambodia, vietnam and neighboring countries to see how these systems evolved, what they are and how they play because you can see similarities and you can see roots and links to india, mongolia, etc. Wrestling still lives on in cambodia, burma and other regions.

The texts he uses are easier to decipher and realize what was there when you have a root understanding from practice and training not just from books and in light of what still exists and is practiced in neighboring regions.

I mean I applaud him for moving forward and trying to be more progressive with his understanding but he is not expert on the subject by any means nor should he be looked to as an expert on the topic. Since for those who give him the benefit of the doubt, his claims of teaching grappling since the 90s, still hasn't produced any champions or high caliber grapplers or fighters so I assume his method is just so superior that it doesnt need to be tested or proven or its just cobbled together confused low level bjj/sambo that lives and breathes in low level comps.

Lastly, there was a lot of debate about wrestling actually existing in Thailand. It did exist as it did in cambodia, laos, burma, vietnam, phillipines, etc. But there was a lack of interest so it slowly died out and some moves incorporated into the bare knuckle in the forms of throws, trips and falling spikes. There are references to people seeing wrestling happening but again all we have are these few first hand reports, ancient texts of techniques and references from different teachers at different points.

If you understand old world wrestling like the previous earlier wrestling in india, fish hooking, hair pulling, skin pinching were allowed and interesting in some texts in thailand, you see reference to those tactics.

Bare knuckle fighting was an open ended affair with no rules in the original incarnation, so you could go to the ground but often like we discussed in the lethwae thread, the ground was used for impact as a sort of third wall. To wear an opponent down by constant slamming or tripping, to land on an opponent to stop or knock the wind out of them, to land on them then spike them with an elbow or punch or scrape, causing bleeding or cuts, to land them on their belly and drive their face into the dirt or sand, etc. Practical use of old world wrestling tactics.

So you can see how one teacher who says he is a "master" and "expert" can distort history, understanding technique and execution and create utter chaos. Again as I stated many times, certain thai people especially martial artists like to write history in reverse meaning taking things that happened in the past and either inject themselves or their system or styles in there to make themselves more important or relevant.

I have trained extensively and recorded the old grappling methods in se asia and india, mongolia and other countries. I normally just dismiss the rubbish from certain peoples mouth but this situation and what he is talking about is nonsense and one shouldn't get tangled in his lies and his foolish writing.

The issue of studying what did exist in thailand is an important one and the research is still on going. So I hope his insistence on trying to comment on history doesn't derail it in anyway. I hope people just take his speeches as conjecture and move on.

I created the physical body 1 and physical body 2 dvds on indian wrestling to create a base understanding to work from. For those who have seen the dvds, I tried to reference in a bit of burmese lethwae, massage techniques, and even trying to show a similarity in the spartan type of lifestyles wrestlers lead much like thai boxers living in a kai muay. Later, I hope to go into the older indian wrestling methods and show very rare texts and photos of the actual fish hooks and old illegal techniques that were once legal in wrestling.

Sorry for the rant and digression but I know this issue has been lingering on many boards and a lot of people ask about the old wrestling methods. They often cite this "master" talking about it and it has been rather nauseating to listen to. I hope this at least clears up the issues a bit.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

DA: Specifically on your question regarding the fights you were watching. They are generally under the newer bare knuckle thai rules fought in thailand. So its close to muay thai but obviously with no gloves and they will allow a throw though they dont many. There seems to be less and less of the M-180 challenge and Tak Province matches which I always really enjoyed. The Burma Vs Thailand continue on as they have for a long time with the new coming up in mid April.

I dont know if you got the GSM Burma vs Japan that was fought in Japan. But in the lethwae rules(as we talked about on the lengthier burmese threads here on the forum), there are several formats that they fight in. In Japan, they fought full lethwae rules and one japanese pulled off a standing choke to win. In burmese rules, standing locks, throws and chokes were legal. In recent times, since they refined the rules for their bigger events, you rarely see any chokes or joint locks used but in the old days they were.

Throwing was as we talked about: To slam a person into the ground for impact then follow up usually with your own bodyweight. If you watched the USA vs Burma match held in Rangoon, the burmese threw the american onto the top of his head, literally bouncing him off the mat. I really enjoyed seeing that because that is a true and tried old school tactic I seen many times taught not only in burma, cambodia thailand but even in india as i captured the same throw used in a kushti match.

Fighting as in a prolonged ground fight was more the province of wrestling specific matches. Now at one time, lets say in burma or cambodia, a master could be a master of wrestling, bare knuckle and weapons. The three primary ways of fighting you generally see throughout the world.

 

[Fede]

Thank you for the description, the "original" Chaiya grappling was an issue a while back and there's been even a video on that!
Luckily there are proofs that can counter the lies.

Also I think the issue of the existence of wrestling in Thailand needed to be expanded. To me it was kind of obvious, I mean there have been wrestling methods in all the neighbouring countries and NOT in Thailand?
It does sound strange, seeing all the technique and weapon similarities among the countries of the region.

The texts and pictures of the old Indian illegal techniques must be interesting, that's another combative aspect that couldn't be brought into sport/competitions.

 

[destructautomaton]

thanksguys for helping to clarify things i was a bit overtaken by all the pro and con info i was getting not only in emails from them but on the web its not always easy to get at what is going on i think this forum has been a godsend for me and probably manyothers just looking for some honest feedback and just plain understanding. thsnks for putting up with my endless questions too.

 

[VASI]

Hi Guys. a former training partner directed me here for some info on the thai material. great stuff. i am here in thailand right now. i can see very clearly what you guys are talking about. i do have a question maybe someone could help with it. What is the whole thing with chaiya look may or look mai and that sort of thing?seems like they make a big deal about it.

 

[Fede]

Hi,

there's been an interesting thread which answers your question, and many others as well.

http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/thaiboxing-kickboxing/36008-chaiya-grape-kool-aid.html

 

[VASI]

Thanks guys so much for the feedback. checked the link very interesting. i joined up the forum because the honesty and great posts.
I am finding it myself mostly true but also trying to learn from great teachers if i can. blackdiamond-what year around did you teach back then?
thanks again

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

VASI
There are a lot of different viewpoints to consider. The harshest of which is probably the linked defend thread. But yes there is enormous truth to what is written. I think our posts here deal more with facts and situations more so than ego.

My point is just show that there is a reality and gravity to things that conjecture and fantasy can't erase nor defeat.

I taught first in 1993, standing joint control for police and military. I began teaching a couple of guys ground no gi techniques with punches like escape from mount, guard, along with attacks like arm bars and leg locks.

We did this because they were my friends and they helped me with my training. The chaiya guys helped me translate texts, explain and do extra days practicing with me, so I trained them in stuff they wanted to learn in exchange. Same with the miltiary and those guys are still my friends and training partners to this day.

Kru Tong was still alive in 1993 and controlled all his students. The one student just taught a basic university course from which kru tong picked the better students and brought them to his home to teach them. Kru Tong said he only allowed them to teach basics and most of the prominent teachers were NOT teaching back then regardless of they say because kru tong wont let them.

The next time i taught again was in 1998, after kru tong died, there was much more interest in the ground vale tudo stuff and some internal material, so again we did one day a week on that. Teachers starting popping up at time teaching chaiya and i moved on to train with some of them but it was mostly a disappointing experience. They lacked what kru tong had, they were just robotic and hollow. They knew the moves but couldnt really fight or decode them because Kru Tong didnt train them for that, he trained them to survive what to him was now a traditional martial art system without outlet(which means bare knuckle fighting opportunites-though i argued with him when he was alive that there were burma vs thailand every year, burma events, and special events like m-180 that could keep the tradition of actual fighting alive). But i found teachers eventually who i felt comfortable with and remained with them until this day.

The point being there was still no ground knowledge from the person saying he was teaching it. The first thailand vale tudo was around 2002, at that time todd and the other guys brought bjj,russian sambo and other grappling arts into the open with a school that was dedicated to it and they produced the first vale tudo event. No one in chaiya despite numerous requests to send anyone fought and like i said the students said no chaiya teacher taught the ground. I knew that because i trained with those teachers and the students. They sat in the audience and watched but no one participated. Same with burma vs thailand, the request went out and no one took it until one student from my school went up and fought.

This is really just a minor point. But its just an illustration of presenting a time line of reality and presenting the facts as i lived them. You can take from it what you will.

I just wanted to make sure people understood the idea of wrestling existed at one time in the region but from what i preceive as a lack of interest by the thai people, it died out as many things do in various regions. It was kept alive in burma, cambodia, vietnam and other places. The three old world arts of bare hand, wrestling and weapons is found throughout the neighboring regions. There is still on going research and sometimes going through regions unexplored martial arts wise like the deep south might yield interesting things. My travels through the south in terms of bare knuckle, krabi krabong, sila and other things was very interesting and dynamic. Likewise looking at the various methods both older and newer of naban and champab show us an evolution through time from a rougher more brutal sport into a more refined sport much like muay thai or kushti's evolution.

Bottom line to me and this my viewpoint and my viewpoint alone is that bare knuckle or muay was and is about fighting as the end product. It kept a reality to it BUT when you reduce it or run away from it you are left with just form that over time will work but you have to spend years at it. form needs to be reduced to function. Whittled down(which was what the origin of muay thai is---an evolution into refining a new sport). Bare knuckle fighting was a method to put guys into the fight in a relatively short time. All the old combative arts had to prepare their warriors to engage and be ready to go when something erupted. It seems lost on many of these teachers but its paramount to understanding them. This is what my research and training is about and as you can see especially in some of these bare knuckle things so much seems to be lost.

 

[Fede]

Well thank you again! I think that the fact these guys didn't step in the competition and said that they didn't know how to fight on the ground should be sufficient to prove some claims wrong.
Also in the yearly Burma vs. Thailand event, the scene was there for anyone to step in and prove themselves.

I see what you say with the old material enabling warriors to fight in a realively short time. Two things come to my mind, warriors didn't have the time to spend years-the time it takes to learn some traditional systems-
to be ready for the battlefield; and at that time Thai traditional styles didn't exist as they have for a while now. So I think that what was used in battle couldn't certainly be the deadly systems some traditional teachers have claimed to teach, armed or unarmed.

I surely don't have the necessary experience or knowledge, but the way I see it muay thai is the direct inheritor (through ancient Thai bare-knuckle competitions) of this art of war, much like pugilism and then boxing are the inheritors of Ancient Greek and Roman competitions-which in turn were the offspring of the battlefield.

 

[blackdiamondcobra]

Yes, it was always baffling to me and its not just with these teachers but in other places as well. They seem to lose the very context of what the style or system is and they twist and turn into something they themselves dont even understand any more. They say its bare knuckle fighting and its useful and current but they fail to keep it that way. Burmese lethwae is a current tradition, its still alive through the competitions even if they are only so many a year. They train it and keep it alive and test it.

Most importantly when you go and document the actual training time of many of these teachers, it was relatively short and not a full time 8 hours a day thing for like 10 years but a few years at a modest, moderate training rate. But when they suddenly come back to teach it takes 5 years or more to get it passed to another person. What happened? Did the teacher not fully develop the material, study it then figure out how to bring it out in another individual in equal or less time? Did they purposely leave out the fighting or testing part because it would make them train them faster and progressively to be good?

Understanding the preparation for the ring or combat is paramount in a combative system. But many systems have become physical education or just a martial system adjusted over time though the teachers argue purity (even in the case of one teacher adding a suffix of grappling/wrestling and the other saying its pure). Its not a pure system really because things were added and expanded and the fighting element reduced with no outlet.

There is nothing wrong with any of the teachings BUT it must be identified because across cultural lines and the traveling of the system especially when these people come to US trying to "sell and market" things it becomes a mess all over again.

 

[VASI]

Been checking out things here. Its been interesting to say the least. I appreciate the insights here. Definitely made a difference in my looking. Would love to go see the burmese fight but its up north. This girl wants to take me.

 

[destructautomaton]

vasi i sent you an im message as i may be heading to thailand real soon i know the info here will help as well as from defend!

 

[VASI]

got your message and replied heading north so i will let you know-will check out places in the north to train

 

[destructautomaton]

in the north are the styles in thailand up there closer looking to the burmese styles because they have fought against one another many times?

 

[Fede]

The sword styles are very similar indeed, my teacher showed me the dance they use at at the very beginning to learn the footwork, he learned that in Burma and it's almost the same compared to Lanna.
Well I would say yes the Burmese and the Thai clashed many times up in the north and it is also true that Burmese and Thai alike shared their systems outside war.

I think in this thread the fact that King Naresuan learned the Burmese systems when he was held captive by them was mentioned, but I cannot say to what extent the northern systems have been influenced by His method.
I saw a Lanna dance on youtube once, it's quite similar to the one I learned I will try to find it.