Terry Shiavo and the Sanctity of Life...

[Tgace]

Hey, go volunteer for a year. Hospitals, rehab centers, hospices always need people. Then get back to us.

How come when I or another LEO makes a similar statement about crime, drug abuse or anything else about our experiences, we get pooh-poohed by folks like you??

 

[rmcrobertson]

I don't. Just thought you'd like to have the same claim thrown back in your face, for once.

 

[Tgace]

What claim might that be o confrontational one?

 

[Ceicei]

**shaking head**

Come on, you guys.... It's entertaining, but doesn't add to the thread...

 

[rmcrobertson]

Gee, O non-confrontational one, maybe the comment you made about my being happy, since Terry Schiavo was going to die...

So tell us: when have you been around somebody in her condition, exactly?

 

[Rich Parsons]

"most of us dont have to sit by her for 1-2 weeks and watch it happen slowly."

Been there, done that, skipped the t-shirt. Have you?

Yes I have, and I would love a t-shirt for memories. But not everyone deals or handles it the same.

 

[Tgace]

Well, my Grandmother took a good long time dying of cancer that spread from her lings to her brain and went from her writhing around yelling out bizzare and disturbing things to lying unconscious in a hospital bed with various lines running out of her, but I didnt realize you have to have had a personal experience to have a valid opinion on this topic. Ill remember that next time you want to voice an opinion on Oh say a military or LEO issue...

On that note I agree with Ceicei. Im bowing out of this love fest.

 

[Flatlander]

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[shesulsa]

Mod. Note: Thread split.

Posts related to Deitism and not related to topic moved to this thread.

Georgia Ketchmark
MartialTalk
Sr. Moderator

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Exactly..and most of us dont have to sit by her for 1-2 weeks and watch it happen slowly.
:asian:

Nor have most of us had to sit and take care of Terri's biologically functioning corpse for 15 years, which is ultimately the main point. So far, the closest I've read anyone claim to relating to anyone involved is robertson's work in hospitals, and even then it was for brief time periods and was caring for hospital patients, not 15 years of watching over his wife's carcass.

Point is, none of us know what this is like for the parents, or for Michael Schiavo, and none of us have any real interest in the case other than Schiavo, Terri's parents, the doctors, the Schiavos' kids, and Schiavo's current wife (he remarried, correct?). If that's the case, there's no reason for the late-night presidential enactment, or Terri's law, or the involvement of any religious activists who really aren't involved and shouldnt have any say in the matter.

 

[rmcrobertson]

There ya go. So I ask again--what, exactly, justifies the prurient interest in this sad case?

 

[Kane]

rmcrobertson, I am not going to try to change your views on this issue or anything, but you honestly got to stop criticizing this issue and blame everything on Christians and other religions. Reading your posts I notice one big pattern. You state your opinion, then you say all those who don't support you’re so called "correct opinion" whether it is the correct view or not, are religious fundamentalists, Bible Belt Members, protestant activities, ect. ect. You blame all the country’s or world's problems and conservatives or Christians. That is a clear sign of a fundamentalist, which you are appearing to be a liberal fundamentalist. Being conservative doesn't mean you are evil, neither does being liberal. Both philosophies are theories on how to live. There is no right way.

You really need to stop putting people who disagree on your views in a box, more specifically a religious conservative fundamentalist box. You generalize way too much.

Oh and guess what, I am pro-choice for the most part, for the legalization of marijuana, for stem cell research, from embryonic research, ect. ect. I am sure all this time you thought of me as the opposite, and put me in your little box where you put Protestants and other conservative religious fundamentalists. Just because I am for the life of Terry Shiavo, you think I am some poser for the conseravtive Christians Group. I support Terry to live not because of religion, I am for her life because I am for the side of life, and strongly against suicide, euthanasia, and murder.

I would have rather PM this to you, but you don't have a PM funtion in your profile. Have a nice day.

 

[michaeledward]

Kane,

To think that this issue is not about 'Fundamental Christianity' is naive in the extreme.

Karl Rove turned out 5 million Evangelical Christians to get C-Plus Augustus re-elected in November, and it is payback time. They expect President George W. Bush to honor their Fundamentalist wishe, Period.

As I mentioned earlier, the President could very easily have signed the Congressional Bill from Crawford, Texas. Instead, he cut short his scheduled vacation (now that really is a miracle), flew back to Washington, had his people wake him up in the middle of the night (it truly must be the End Times)to sign the bill.

Whether you are mostly pro-choice or not (again, I don't believe it for a minute) is irrelevant. This fight is not being fought based on any one persons beliefs. It is being fought for the tenet of Conservative Christianity, because they turned out the vote. As they say, "you got to dance with the one that brung ya".

 

[rmcrobertson]

Nonsense.

In the first place, I'm not blaming "Christians," for anything. Nor can you show me a quote in which I've said that, or even remotely hinted at it.

What I've said is that in this case, a small subset of Christians--Protestant fundamentalists, and of course not even all of those (note that Jimmy Carter, being a civilzed and decent man, hasn't said a word about all this), have pushed and pushed and pushed this issue.

And, as mentioned above, they've very clearly said that Bush is the guy they elected, and he needs to do something. Check the 700 Club; check the Christian Coalition; check any of these guys, and they'll tell you exactly that. And they'll tell you unequivocally. Look it up for once.

The problem is that you don't know jack about religions--see the stuff where you claimed to be a deist, but not to believe in a Deity!--and you don't seem to want to find out. here, you appear to think that, "Christian," and, "right-wing Protestant fundamentalist," are synonyms.(Hint--argue the official Catholic position. It's more logical, better supported, and WAY better mannered.) Absolutely your prerogative--but if you're going to argue and discuss things like this, you need a lot better ammo than what you're bringing.

As long as you're insistently bringing up the notion--and it is just a notion--that I'm sticking everybody in boxes, try this: of course I'm not against this sad woman's life, however much you might try to establish a binary opposition in which you life, me death.

It's just that I think her life ended about fifteen years ago, Elmer Gantry.

 

[rmcrobertson]

The TWENTY-SEVENTH court just denied the latest appeal.

 

[Kane]

The problem is that you don't know jack about religions--see the stuff where you claimed to be a deist, but not to believe in a Deity!--and you don't seem to want to find out. here, you appear to think that, "Christian," and, "right-wing Protestant fundamentalist," are synonyms.(Hint--argue the official Catholic position. It's more logical, better supported, and WAY better mannered.) Absolutely your prerogative--but if you're going to argue and discuss things like this, you need a lot better ammo than what you're bringing.

Who said I did not believe in a deity? I certianly did not say that. I said my deity may or may not be the same deity as what other religions may claim as a diety. Quote where I said I did not believe in a deity? I'm not absolute on who the deity is, as a deist it is okay to not be absolute.

Oh and I am not trying to branch "Christian" and "Right Wing" in the same branch. I am saying that it seems that you do it a lot. You anyways always put me into the category so I am assuming having some conservative philosophies to you is considered on the Christian side, the same side in which you relate the two imo.

Kane,

To think that this issue is not about 'Fundamental Christianity' is naive in the extreme.

Karl Rove turned out 5 million Evangelical Christians to get C-Plus Augustus re-elected in November, and it is payback time. They expect President George W. Bush to honor their Fundamentalist wishe, Period.

As I mentioned earlier, the President could very easily have signed the Congressional Bill from Crawford, Texas. Instead, he cut short his scheduled vacation (now that really is a miracle), flew back to Washington, had his people wake him up in the middle of the night (it truly must be the End Times)to sign the bill.

Whether you are mostly pro-choice or not (again, I don't believe it for a minute) is irrelevant. This fight is not being fought based on any one persons beliefs. It is being fought for the tenet of Conservative Christianity, because they turned out the vote. As they say, "you got to dance with the one that brung ya".

Yes, of course there are many Christians that are trying to use Terry Shiavo as a tool to spread their teachings. Yes, Bush probably interfered with the case because of religious reasons (no hard evidence for it but it is a possibility). That however is not my point. My point is that you don't have to be Christian or religious to care about life. You can be agnostic, deist, Buddhist, pantheist, or even atheist to respect life that exists in our world, and not to kill off people who we think has "no hope". They did that in Nazi Germany by the way. They killed people in hospitals who the doctors thought was too late to save. It seems like we are going on that path. Many people in America including myself, whether Christian or not, are against Euthanasia or self assisted suicides. Killing people who are too "sick" or "depressed" is not the way to go. You don't have to be religious to be against suicide or euthanasia. To me this goes beyond religion. This goes to the realms or morality to me.

Oh and I don't understand why you don't believe that I am pro-choice for a minuet after telling you. Is it really so hard to mix both conservative and liberal philosophies into an ideology? You know people like this do exist; they are call centrists or moderates. That is what I am. It may not seem like it, it is mainly because majority of this board does seem liberal (which is not bad, and you cannot deny it) so I seem to be arguing more for conservatism sometimes. If I was to go to a more conservative forum, you would be surprised how liberal I could be. If someone was to examine both boards, it would be very obvious how moderate I am, for I am almost a pure centrist.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Not that it'll have the slightest effect, but you might consult your very own posts, in which you claimed to be a Deist but then huffily insisted that you did not believe in an deity.

2. What you are arguing for is keeping a husk alive by whatever means necessary. I doubt you'll actually look it up, but you should check and see what it takes to keep somebody "alive," who's completely bedridden and unresponsive.

3. Yes, it's quite true that folks who claim to be, "centrists," or, "moderates," work very hard to claim that theirs is the neutral, common-sense viewpoint, as opposed to all them wacky ideologues. Funnily enough, though, these, "centrists," never seem to have anything to complain about with the right side of the political spectrum. Mainly because they pretty much agree with 'em, I suspect.

 

[michaeledward]

Thank you Dr. McRobertson. I agree.

Kane, - I did not say that Leader Frist, Leader Delay or President Bush made this decision for religious reasons. They have taken their stances for political reasons. Their decisions have very little to do with 'caring about life'. They have an awful lot to do with 'caring about votes'.

Poor Senator Frist. When he gets to New Hampshire, he may find new meaning in our state motto; "Life Free or Die". This vote, his remote diagnosis, and his participation in the passage of the midnight legislation probably will cost him the New Hampshire Primary, and thus, the nomination. Oops. You see, this state is a 'small government' Red state.

Please review the history of Nazi Germany. You may find the 'Final Solution' had nothing to do with killing off people with 'no hope', as you put it. Oh, yeah, and the analogy is repugnant and inaccurate.

Of course Americans are against Euthanasia and Assisted Suicide. They may have noted that Dr. Kavorkian is now inmate Kavorkian. However, no one involved with Mrs. Shiavo is committing Euthanasia. They have removed the nutrient and hydration tube. Many on this thread have stated they have an ethical dilemma with allowing her to die of dehydration, but most are also against an overdose of morphine.

To deny a difference between Euthanasia and dehydration is similar to claiming, well, Nazi Germany's Final Solution was because millions of European minorities had 'no hope'.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Did anybody post this?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1445522,00.html?gusrc=rss


If so, I apologize.



Regards,



Steve

 

[Ceicei]

Final commentary from a legal point of view on the Schiavo issue:

http://abstractappeal.com/

- Ceicei