Tensho kata (internal form?)

Discussion in 'Chinese Internal Arts : Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and Qi' started by _Simon_, Nov 4, 2018.

  1. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master Black Belt

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    Just had a look in my old syllabus but not much clarification there, except that the Dai and Sho don't mean anything specific to the kata, didn't know that! Perhaps simply as a way of differentiating it from Goju's Ichi and Ni series?

    Have written what it says here:

    "Gekisai Dai: Conquer and occupy - major. May also mean "Storm the Fortress". Created by Miyagi in 1940 with the purpose of teaching strong and powerful movement.

    Gekisai Sho: Conquer and occupy - minor. There is no reason why one is called major and the other minor. Can also mean "attack and smash, demolish, destroy, pulverize". Both kata teach strength through fluidity of motion, mobility and the utilization of various techniques. Flexibility of attack and response will always be superior to rigid and inflexible strength."
     
  2. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    A very well written and thought out post. I knew most of it beforehand, and calling Gekisai Dai Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata was the short version :)

    As Simon said ( :) ) we’re discussing Gekisai Sho, not Gekisai Dai and it’s versions. I’ve seen several versions of Gekisai Dai by Goju and Fukyu by Shorin Ryu. None of which are similar to Gekisai Sho.

    Mas Oyama has created a kata or two - one that I immediately think of is Garyu. He has heavily modified others. Gojushiho has been modified heavily by Oyama and he subsequently named his version Useishi. He heavily modified Seipai and Kanku as well. He’s modified common kyu kata such as Sanchin and Saiha, and slightly modified relatively scarce Yantsu (Shito Ryu) and Tsuki-No (Seigokan Goju Ryu).

    With all of that in mind, it’s entirely within the realm of possibility that Oyama created Gekisai Sho as what he (and I) feel is a logical next step.

    Kyokushin’s Gekisai Dai is a tweaked Gekisai Dai ichi. Kyokushin’s Gekisai Sho bears no resemblance to Gekisai Dai ni or less common san. The basic formula: counts, pace and embussen are the same; the movements are not, except the gedan brai into kiba dachi in the beginning IMO.

    On face value it would appear to be Miyagi and Nagamine’s kata. Thinking about it for a few minutes - specifically who does it and who doesn’t - and eyebrows get raised. IMO Hanshi Arneil was either misinformed about the kata’s origin or assumed incorrectly. As far as I know, he was the first to write about its origin, and everything afterwards is either a direct cut and paste or copied and changed a few words.
     
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  3. Yokazuna514

    Yokazuna514 Green Belt

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    Occupy and Conquer Major and Minor is how I know Gekisai Dai and Gekesai Sho. What I always found interesting is the use of 'Dai' and 'Sho' to denote the 'grade' of the kata. When a Shihan is referred to as Shihan-Dai, it generally means this person can be deferred to as the Shihan if the Shihan is not on the premises. This implies that Shihan Dai is subordinate to the Shihan. In this context, I would have thought Gekisai Dai was the minor of the two Gekisai katas. When we look at the techniques used in the kata, I've always thought Gekisai Sho demonstrated technically higher level techniques but I admit I am far from an expert at the history or interpretation of these katas. I enjoyed the discussion and all the input though.
    There you go implying that Shihan Arneill has human fallibility again ;) ......
     
  4. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    I think the Dai in Shihan Dai is a different word than than in Gekisai Dai. Like here and hear. I could be wrong though; my only Japanese is “dojo Japanese” along with a few phrases my Japanese friends have taught me.

    And that’s Arneil’s ONLY falliblity. Superman has kryptonite, Arneil has the origin of Gekisai Sho. At least Arneil’s won’t kill him :)
     
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  5. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    The Dai-Sho relationship in kata seems to denote a Primary/Core form (Dai) and a supplementary/expansion form (Sho).

    The implication being that the dai form is the source book for the principles and the Sho form shows other ways to embody those ideas.
     
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  6. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master Black Belt

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    Ah I wasn't aware of the use of Shihan Dai!
     
  7. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master Black Belt

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    That is... really cool! Thanks for that DaveB, that explanation makes alot of sense.

    Gekisai Sho definitely seems to contain/express the principles of Gekisai Dai, but it actually does seem to be an expansion of it. I'd also like to look at Kanki Dai as compared to Kanku Sho but don't know them well enough.

    Never heard of that way of explaining it :)
     
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  8. JR 137

    JR 137 Senior Master

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    My former organization used it at 5th dan. 6th dan (and above) was Shihan. My former teacher told me Shihan Dai roughly meant “assistant master.” Kind of like assistant manager. That’s basically what Yokozuna514 was saying, only in a different way.

    Seido used it for a little while. My teacher has a plaque or two with “Shihan Dai Carter” written on it. I asked him about it, and he giggled and said he had 3 different titles without getting promoted while he was a godan. He went from Sensei to Shihan Dai to Kyoshi within a few years. It was during the time guys like Charles Martin and William Oliver were getting higher in rank and Kaicho wanted to differentiate them from the rest. Kaicho settled on Kyoshi for godan and had specific titles tied to specific dan ranks ever since, tying into the conversation we previously had about titles in Seido.

    Edit: Shihan Dai isn’t used anymore in Seido. It was only used for a few years at most.
     
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  9. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

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    My bad. I totally missed reading the word "sho". I went back... and sure enough... it is there.
    Please forgive me for the lengthy and off topic post.

    It would only be off topic, if the kata Sho were not created at the same time and place.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2018
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  10. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master Black Belt

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    Ah I see, interesting, didn't know that. And yeah I think Dai must then be a different word altogether than the one used for katas.
     
  11. _Simon_

    _Simon_ Master Black Belt

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    Nah I enjoyed what you wrote, I find interesting not only the history of katas but why they were created, and what principles they're trying to teach the karateka :)
     
  12. DaveB

    DaveB Master Black Belt

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    Looking at Gekisai Sho, my money is on Oyama as creator:
    • Mid level side kicks indicate a post war origin.
    • The long stances are reminiscent of Shotokan which sit in contrast with the Shiko dachi not found in Shotokan kata but common to Goju ryu.
    • Oyama was fond of cat stance.
    • The only other place to find a technique combination like that would be Shito ryu, but they were too busy collecting old kata to make up a new one like this.
     
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