Tekki Shodan Kick Application

[eyebeams]

I think that a sweep like deashi harai takes a little imagination, however, hiza garuma pretty much looks exactly like the move in the form.

Yep. The full movement is also a leg counter technique. You rotate and set your stance against the opponent's other, rooted leg. If you are on the inside it's a fairly straightforward trip. On the outside, it's a variation on the throw at the very beginning of the set.

 

[eyebeams]

One of the things that I've often wondered is whether or not MMA is something unique to our time. We often hear that people "back then" fought just the same as we do now...but what if that isn't true? Perhaps grappling on the ground was not something that people trained in for whatever reason. Or maybe it really is knowledge that failed to transfer...

No, back then, wrestling was a universal sport among males. The reason striking systems seem to omit groundfighting is because grappling was universal, and striking and standing controls were the exotic systems. The ability to maintain distance and deliver what is now called an effective "ground n' pound," or a rapid submission while retaining a weapon were what many traditional arts are about. For instance, the Bubishi includes illustrations describing defences against common takedowns.

If you're a martial artist, you should consider training in basic grappling of any kind to be just as "traditional," since your arts were designed under the assumption that you'd know what to do. Martial arts were designed for violent athletic people; we aren't usually those people any more, so we have some catching up to do.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

No there hasn't. There is no ground grappling in stand-up kata applications, and anybody who says so is trying to sell you something you don't want to buy.

Karate kata are designed as compelments to indigenous Okinawan grappling systems. If you want to learn to grapple like an Okinawan, learn what is called Okinawan sumo and was called Tigumi. Alternately, learn Greco-Roman, which is played alnost the same way and has very similar techniques.

Kata do have standing grappling techniques, but if they were designed to teach you to fight on the ground, you would do them on the ground.

Tegumi was incorprated into a lot of Okinawan Karate. And we do get on the ground and practice. This has always been done to my knowledge - long before the BJJ craze. This is considered "advanced" and some might want to call it "secret" to add more appeal to it. Perhaps if more people stayed with thier teachers longer before going out on thier own, they would have advanced more and seen it.

Just because you don't know something doe snot mean it does not exist.
Go back to your teacher or find another one if he can't teach you these things.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Tegumi was incorprated into a lot of Okinawan Karate. And we do get on the ground and practice. This has always been done to my knowledge - long before the BJJ craze. This is considered "advanced" and some might want to call it "secret" to add more appeal to it. Perhaps if more people stayed with thier teachers longer before going out on thier own, they would have advanced more and seen it.

Just because you don't know something doe snot mean it does not exist.
Go back to your teacher or find another one if he can't teach you these things.

lol

 

[Makalakumu]

No, back then, wrestling was a universal sport among males. The reason striking systems seem to omit groundfighting is because grappling was universal, and striking and standing controls were the exotic systems. The ability to maintain distance and deliver what is now called an effective "ground n' pound," or a rapid submission while retaining a weapon were what many traditional arts are about. For instance, the Bubishi includes illustrations describing defences against common takedowns.

I read an interview with Hohan Soken that stated this. I am wondering, however, if there are any scholarly books on this subject? It would be nice to read this and be able to check some verifiable sources...

 

[BlackCatBonz]

I read an interview with Hohan Soken that stated this. I am wondering, however, if there are any scholarly books on this subject? It would be nice to read this and be able to check some verifiable sources...

i think i read the same interview.......but i cant remember where.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

lol

LATF
(LAUGHING AT THE FOOL)

 

[Andrew Green]

For instance, the Bubishi includes illustrations describing defences against common takedowns.

Yep, as well as takedowns. But no where does it contain guard or mount or anything on the ground. Those things are not there, but some basic takedowns and defences are.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

LATF
(LAUGHING AT THE FOOL)

show us some verifiable proof that the kata's applications included groundfighting.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

here is a link to a website that has the interview with Hohan Soken in which he talks about Okinawan wrestling.

http://budoway.com/HohanSoken.htm

 

[kenpojujitsu]

show us some verifiable proof that the kata's applications included groundfighting.

What do you want me to do, get in my time machine and become a senior student of one of the masters and secretly take photos?

The arts were handed down person to person by oral tradition. Some Kata and applications were taught only to certain individuals. Little by little things were let out to those who agreed not to teach them publicly.

Again, your lack of knowledge does not consititute proof that something does not exist.

Just go to a dojo that teaches the old way and earn your education, you'll see for your self.

I trained with 2 unrelated Goju teachers, who I know for sure had different teachers, from different lines directly back to Miyagi, in different countries and never met. They both teach ground fighting applications of Goju Ryu Kata.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

What do you want me to do, get in my time machine and become a senior student of one of the masters and secretly take photos?

The arts were handed down person to person by oral tradition. Some Kata and applications were taught only to certain individuals. Little by little things were let out to those who agreed not to teach them publicly.

Again, your lack of knowledge does not consititute proof that something does not exist.

Just go to a dojo that teaches the old way and earn your education, you'll see for your self.

I trained with 2 unrelated Goju teachers, who I know for sure had different teachers, from different lines directly back to Miyagi, in different countries and never met. They both teach ground fighting applications of Goju Ryu Kata.

i am not debating that the okinawans did groundfighting as an "indigenous" type of art. i did study a kempo system in the old way that was rife with groundfighting that my teacher learned before the whole mixed martial arts craze; this groundfighting however, was much different than the groundfighting you see in brazilian jujutsu.
what i am debating is the fact that some people say that groundfighting has been hidden in the kata all along. there are certainly principles present in the kata that are applicable to the ground, but, the grappling and throwing techniques present in the kata are not groundfighting.

 

[kenpojujitsu]

there are certainly principles present in the kata that are applicable to the ground, but, the grappling and throwing techniques present in the kata are not groundfighting.

This goes back to the ridiulous statements in the Kosho Shorei thread like "We don't have techniques, we have principles"

The technniques are there to put the principles into practice. If there is a principle behind that is applicable to ground fighting, then when you practice the technique you are practicing the principle which includes ground fighting. So like I said, there has always been ground fighting in the kata.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

okie dokie

 

[eyebeams]

This goes back to the ridiulous statements in the Kosho Shorei thread like "We don't have techniques, we have principles"

The technniques are there to put the principles into practice. If there is a principle behind that is applicable to ground fighting, then when you practice the technique you are practicing the principle which includes ground fighting. So like I said, there has always been ground fighting in the kata.

Yet, there are no kata where you are actually lying on the ground. How can you put it int practice without practicing it in a body posture that even faintly resembles reality? This not only contradicts your statement, but it contradicts the Chinese base of the sets, wherin you actually lie on the ground to work on groundfighting as per drunken and dog boxing. As dog boxing is fujianese, it would have been known among karate's founders -- but there are no guoquan sets in karate. See:

http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/satbi-e/martart/wushu/gouquan.html