tapi-tapi experimentation

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dieter

Did anybody see, that somebody ever tried or even took the lead of Remy during the Tapi-Tapi?

I did. I would try to enter all of the time. The drill was meant to teach us how to take charge. If you have a dominent partner, you get few chances to lead. This is why you didn't see anyone lead with him. The other reason is that in front of everyone while he was instructing, your job was to follow. On the side when no one was looking was a different story.

The last time Remy taught in Buffalo, Kevin Black was working with Remy and I on some variations of the drill. Remy started up with Kevin in the left on right mode. Out of nowhere Kevin enters from the right hand side. Remy looks up at the punyo that is paused inches from his temple and just starts laughing like a proud father. We then started talking about Balintawak as he continued to teach us.

Tapi-tapi is the closest thing to sparring that Modern Arnis does in a drill form. We are playing a friendly game of tag. It is where we lay it on the line short of real combat.

That's all for now.

:jediduel: :asian:

 

[Dan Anderson]

Re: Dieter's quote in Renegade's post -
Sure. It usually got reversed on us.
Dan Anderson

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson

Re: Dieter's quote in Renegade's post -
Sure. It usually got reversed on us.
Dan Anderson

Yep, it didn't last more than a second, two if you were lucky.

 

[Brian Johns]

Whoopass and I talkedbout this at the camp and Whoop asked the Prof. how one takes the lead. Remy told him that "you must counter". Of course this can be done in many ways. Changing hands is just one of them, but it is a very viable way to get it done. The idea, in my mind, is NOT to be dominated,so one has to respond in a way to change this.

Yes, indeed, I did talk to the Professor about this very topic. He and I talked about tapi tapi over breakfast and I specifically asked him about how one takes the lead in tapi tapi. I asked him that in light of happened between Mao and another Modern Arnis player. I was a bystander and I just had to ask the Professor how to deal with a driver. His simple answer was that you must look for the openings and counter. While this may seem fairly obvious, the thrust of what the Professor was saying to me was that the most effective counters did not come from brute strength but rather through brains, finesse, body positioning, and angling. I have to admit that I'm not an expert tapi tapi player and have A LOT to learn. I just have to go out and practice.

WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

 

[Brian Johns]

He started off with right to right and only at the 2nd or 3dr seminar he starded to teach the left to right. Taking that into account, it is of course nonsense, that only the right hand is driving, as you call it. We call it leading or dominating.

This is interesting. From my experience, the Professor first taught left vs. right tapi tapi. Then we progressed to right vs. right tapi tapi. My introduction to tapi tapi was the left vs. right. It was awhile before I progressed to right vs. right tapi tapi. So I would think that the way to teach tapi tapi is to teach it the way the Professor taught it. Of course, once you have the basics of the Left vs. right tapi tapi, and the right vs. right tapi tapi, you can then explore and do other variations of tapi tapi (as pointed out by Palasut). But, in my opinion, you can't become proficient in tapi tapi if you do it willy nilly. I think that you have to have a strong foundation with the left vs. right tapi tapi as well as the right v. right tapi tapi. Once you learn to take the lead in those situations, you can then branch out to the other tapi tapi variations.

Just my own humble WhoopAss opinion:drinkbeer


WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Actually the drill starts out right on right. The left on right has only been around since about 1998. Right on right was in the first tape series and was called solo baston single cane sparring.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hi All,

Very good thread here!

The first time I heard about Tapi-Tapi
I was confused by the name, and then when I saw
that it was 'Single cane sparring' as the name
taught to me, I said I can try this ;~).

As for the off hand, well if yo have ever trained
someone with a close head injury or some other
head injury then many times they have problems
learning. But I have found that to get them to
move and to use their off side, improves their
overall quality of life. That is to say that the
student not only learns the art and the technique
one is trying to teach them, but in their normal
life they improve as a whole. Now this is a
limited sample size of three, but all three have
had improvements.

Just my comments ;~)

BTW - The best invention of the 20th century was
the spell checker. :rofl:

Enjoy your training I know I do

Rich

:asian:

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Renegade

Right on right was in the first tape series and was called solo baston single cane sparring.

Still one of my favorite drills--I actually start people with solo baston rather than the numerada (though I do numerada from day one also).

 

[Brian Johns]

Actually the drill starts out right on right. The left on right has only been around since about 1998. Right on right was in the first tape series and was called solo baston single cane sparring.

I've seen that on the first tape series. However, I just want to note for the record that the first time I learned tapi tapi was left vs. right. It was awhile before I got to the right v. right version of tapi tapi. As I said earlier, I'm no expert on tapi tapi but I do know enough from my experience that one must really understand the basics of left v. right and the right v. right before you get into the counters/taking the lead etc. If I'm teaching a student left on right tapi tapi, it's imperative that the student understand it without you messing him/her by constantly countering. Let that student be the driver. Let him develop that left hand.

From what I can see, tapi tapi is not merely a collection of techniques or a drill strung together willy nilly. I see tapi tapi as the major concept of counter for counter. Heck, that's basically what the Professor covered in camps and seminars in his last few years.

For whatever it's worth.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Yes, it is a good thread. Don't show it to Kodai.

Back in the ancient days when I had hair, I too, learned tapi-tapi right on right first. Back then it was just another counter to counter drill and not the cane sparring drill it is called today. Cane sparring was its (and I feel it is still) own entity.

One should understand that tapi-tapi is a subdivision of a series of drills which all comprise the counter to counter series. Equally important are the original 4 count flow drill, the give and take, the 6 count (what others call the 6 count box drill) and expanded 6 count and the cane sparring sequences (both R/R and L/R). The entire set of drills give one the ability to counter and in short, not be surprised by what you partner does. This is thoroughly covered (oh, oh! Shameless plug time!) in my next ebook, Advanced Modern Arnis - A Road To Mastery. I'll have it at Buffalo camp in May.

Dan Anderson
PS - Pretty sneaky about the book plug, eh? :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson


PS - Pretty sneaky about the book plug, eh? :asian:

I saw it coming.

 

[Dan Anderson]

You got eyes in the back of your head, son.

Dan

:cheers:

 

[Mao]

I have seen new students shown both ways at different times, L v. L, R v. L. . I think that, as Whoophiney said, it is important for the beginner to have a good strong foundation in the basics. I think that the "traditionals" serve this purpose well. Get them used to handling a cane in first place. Renegade, that would be a RATTAN cane, not their third cane so to speak.

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Mao

Renegade, that would be a RATTAN cane, not their third cane so to speak.

Dude, stop talking about my cane! You're scaring me!

 

[Mao]

I'm wearing my feather boa. Wanna see??

 

[Bob Hubbard]

As a slightly humorous aside... that would be interesting to watch... 2 guys, going at Tapi-Tapi at full speed, with boas spinning in the breeze.

So, foundations. Where are they? (and don't say the book by Asimov) Are they derived from the basic stick drills, or are there specific drills that lead to Tapi-Tapi?

:asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by Mao

I'm wearing my feather boa. Wanna see??

La, La, La, I can't hear you!:erg:

 

[Mao]

Renn., I'll still be here when you stop humming!

As for how to get into the tapi tapi thing. It can be bred off of the "block, check , counter" drill. Instead of block, check, counter, make it block, check, tapi tapi. I hope that makes sense. It can also be bred off of the various striking styles. From block, check, pick your striking style to block, check, use the striking style movement to flow into tapi tapi movements. Make sense? There are many other ways to get there as well. "You must explore", "You have it already", "It is all dee same", "You got it?", "Could you do dat, I would like to see you do dat". Man, I miss that.

 

[Brian Johns]

One should understand that tapi-tapi is a subdivision of a series of drills which all comprise the counter to counter series. Equally important are the original 4 count flow drill, the give and take, the 6 count (what others call the 6 count box drill) and expanded 6 count and the cane sparring sequences (both R/R and L/R).

I have to respectfully disagree here. The Professor repeatedly said that Tapi Tapi was the heart of the art of Modern Arnis and everything he did in seminars and camps in the last few years of his life were all focused on tapi tapi. As a matter of fact, the 15 tape series that he made a year and a half before his death focused quite a bit on tapi tapi. Most important, he conferred the title of Master of Tapi Tapi upon several people, which is an indication of the importance that Professor placed on Tapi Tapi. I think that it's safe to say that Professor definitely did not consider tapi tapi to be a "subdivision of a series of drills." Furthermore, Professor really did not consider tapi tapi to be a drill. He considered it to be a CONCEPT. In addition to stick tapi tapi, there was also empty handed tapi tapi.

Bottom line, the Professor considered tapi tapi to be the heart of the art in his last few years. It's basically all he emphasized in the last few years.

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!:soapbox:

:asian:

 

[Mao]

Bdion baby, you got it! Dat was beautiful!

I think that the flavor of things for those who were not often able to be at camps for some years, (hows that for tact?) would be a little different than for those who frequented these events for the last several years. There was increasing emphasis on tapi tapi in the last several years. Remy had said that many people were not ready for it years ago. I didn't say this, Remy did. Don't shoot the messenger. I believe that those who could get their minds around it got to work it. Remy was very good at guaging the crowd and making sure that everybody got something they needed. As has been said, modern arnis was an evolving style.