Tanto Hyung Video

[Makalakumu]

At chodan, TSD students begin to learn knife work in ernest. This is the traditional tanto hyung that we learn (my teacher is also a maestro in Arnis de Mano so we get lots more knife work then just this). Check it out and lets talk about it.

http://www.martialtalk.com/videos/jk_tantohyung.avi

upnorthkyosa

ps - this video was taken at my home dojang and yes, those are my kids in the background...

 

[Flying Crane]

OK, first off, I can't claim to have any real knowledge of knife fighting so my comments are based purely on my observations.

I like how the weapon is switched from hand to hand. I also notice this in the Stick video. I tend to believe that in a real fight you would generally not do this for fear of losing the weapon in the transfer, but as a training tool practicing with both hands is good, in my opinion. After all, you never know when you might need to use your weak hand for some reason.

As far as the structure of the form itself, I am curious to hear your thoughts on the mixture of weapon techniques along with empty hand and kicking techniques. It seems to me that once you have drawn the weapon and made the choice to engage with the weapon, that would be your primary focus. Does it make sense to mix the other techniques along with the knife techniques? I notice that many of the hand and kicking techniques are done while the knife is not otherwise engaged, and perhaps could have been used instead. Under these circumstances the knife might have been the better choice to "finalize" the situation, rather than take the chance that someone might not be terminated with a kick or a punch.

As an exercise, I can see the form contains a good deal of fluidity, including flowing from weapon to empty hand and kicking techniques. I think this is good for developing the fluidity and variety. My earlier comments just question the basic idea underlying the design and construction of the form itself. Is it realistic to think that if you actually had to engage with a knife, that you would try to alternate with non-weapon techniques? Or would you focus exclusively on use of the weapon? I don't know the answer so it is a point for discussion.

 

[Makalakumu]

First off, I am not a big fan of this kata. I like the fluidity and its fun to perform, but practically, I think the questions you raised are valid. Why not just use the knife? Another point of contention that I have with this form is the way that it sometimes puts the knife in line with parts of the weilders body. I view this as pointing a loaded weapon at ones own appendages.

There are still some valid applications in this form though. I like the clearing moves and the subsequent slashes and I like how certain attacks set up finishing moves with the knife.

As far as the origin of this hyung, I have been unable to determine an actual source for it. I know that it comes down Master Seiberlich's line in Soo Bahk Do Moo Do Kwan, but I do not know where he learned this form. Master Ferraro has indicated that the tanto hyungs came from a japanese system and were passed on in a dojo in Finland, of all places.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sounds like we are on a similar wavelength.

In spite of its potential flaws (I say Potential because if you dig deeply enough you may figure out some sense to it) it is kind of nice and has a pleasant flow to it. Maybe all it needs is for you to do some tweaking to make the necessary improvements.

By the way, I like the technique where you stab down thru your legs at the guy behind you. I have a Chinese Broadsword set from Tibetan White Crane that uses that same technique. At a tournament last year I screwed up and slammed the tip of the sword into the floor, sticking it in the floorboards. I yanked it out and kept going, but had to fight to keep from laughing in the middle of my set. The judges apparently thought it was intentional because they didn't mark my score down for it. Some spectators later commented "Good technique: Assassin Hiding Under The Sand!"

 

[Makalakumu]

"Good technique: Assassin Hiding Under The Sand!"

OMFG!!!

I've seen that so many times!

 

[Flying Crane]

OMFG!!!

I've seen that so many times!

oh yeah!

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the hard things about going back to the source, in this case, is that I don't exactly know where the source is and neither does anyone I have asked (I haven't asked Master Seiberlich yet, but I'm thinking of a way that I could approach him). I have a feeling that this form was altered and I have heard rumors that it was, but I have yet to see the original version.

It would be nice to have a few more hours in each day so one could research this stuff...

Anyway, I was thinking about this form as a defense against a mass attack and the other day during sparring with multiple opponents, I picked up a wooden knife and gave it a try. Many of the elements of this form came in handy. Particularly, the clearing and then strike and the kicking combinations and strike with the knife.

 

[Flying Crane]

Anyway, I was thinking about this form as a defense against a mass attack and the other day during sparring with multiple opponents, I picked up a wooden knife and gave it a try. Many of the elements of this form came in handy. Particularly, the clearing and then strike and the kicking combinations and strike with the knife.

Sounds like you are on the right track. Keep playing with it to see what makes sense. In my opinion, after thorough examination, feel free to make changes so that things make more sense. Maybe keep your instructor in the loop so you at least have another opinion, but I don't see why it needs to be considered Sacred in its current shape, especially if it has already been altered by someone else.

 

[Brother John]

interesting video.
What I like the most is the background noises of the kids having fun. That's what it'd be like If I made a video!

I'm not, now, going to comment on the Hyung itself, but I was wondering if you could help me out with the terminology.
The word "tanto" is for a Japanese longknife (can't tell for sure, but it does look like you've got one in your hands in the vid). But I think that the Korean term for knife is different.
The word Hyung is definitely Korean and began to be used to describe the Korean forms around the 1950's-60's.

So was this originally a Japanese form (Kata) that was translated into your Korean system???
Just curious, seriously. It would make sense as Tang Soo Do was originally a translation of Shotokan into a Korean art. (BUT: Shotokan Karate-Do has no "knife" techniques or forms in it...thus my question)
Thank you

Your Brother
John

 

[MSUTKD]

Hyung is the Korean pronunciation of (型). It is pronounced Kata in Japanese and Xing in Chinese. Just like Tang Soo Do is pronounced Kara Te Do in Japanese. I will look at the Chinese character for tanto and give you the Korean pronunciation.

ron

p.s. Upnorth, I know I might have said this before but, the characters for Bunkai is (分解) it is pronounced Boon Hae in Korean.

 

[Makalakumu]

Hyung is the Korean pronunciation of (型). It is pronounced Kata in Japanese and Xing in Chinese. Just like Tang Soo Do is pronounced Kara Te Do in Japanese. I will look at the Chinese character for tanto and give you the Korean pronunciation.

ron

p.s. Upnorth, I know I might have said this before but, the characters for Bunkai is (分解) it is pronounced Boon Hae in Korean.

Unfortunately, none of the chinese characters that you are posting are being shown by my computer. I think that I need to download some language packs.

Isn't the Korean name for long knife almost the same as the japanese name? I've heard it pronouced like this...Tan Do.

If the form is Japanese in origin, would it still be appropriate to call the techniques boon hae?

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Hello gentlemen,

It is an interesting knife form. Looks very classical in movements and has a very hard style feel to it, but it looks like there are some strong reverse grip basics there. I'm not too excited about the continued emphasis of empty hand techniques, but I also recognize their value both on the forms component as well as in keeping the fighting repertoire open (Ie; not to forget that you have hands and feet too), BUT, and this is a big "but", they must be utilized at the right time. Not “just because”.

As for Korean terms, I was taught two ways of saying knife in Korean:

1-Dan Gum (Short Sword, or knife)
2-Kal (knife or sharp tool)

I was told Kal is more like a "kitchen knife", where as Dan Gum is more of a "weapon knife".

It is interesting to note the relationship if the words and characters in Korean, Japanese and Chinese:

- Gum = Sword (or Knife) in Korean
- Ken = Sword in Japanese
- Gim = Sword in Chinese

If you would like to see some of our knife techniques and I believe some of our knife forms, check out our video clips at:

http://www.farangmusul.com/VideoClips.htm

There are several clips from our knife tapes, and you will find knife (and other weapons) training in some of the other video clips.

Modern Farang Mu Sul's knife program is very extensive and comes directly from several Korean martial arts such as Hwa Rang Do, Do Hap Sool, Sun Moo Do and others (with some minor influences of other non-Korean arts).

I hope this is helpful.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba

 

[tsdclaflin]

OK, first off, I can't claim to have any real knowledge of knife fighting so my comments are based purely on my observations.

Ditto.

I am curious to hear your thoughts on the mixture of weapon techniques along with empty hand and kicking techniques. It seems to me that once you have drawn the weapon and made the choice to engage with the weapon, that would be your primary focus.

I would agree with the form. To focus on the weapon, puts you at a disadvantage. If I am ever unarmed and faced with an armed opponent, I will hope that his primary focus is his weapon, and I expect it will be. I still have all my weapons (hands, feet, knees, elbows) and if he is focused on his knife (for example), he has only one weapon.

My 2 cents....from zero experience....

 

[Kuk Sa Nim]

Ditto.



I would agree with the form. To focus on the weapon, puts you at a disadvantage. If I am ever unarmed and faced with an armed opponent, I will hope that his primary focus is his weapon, and I expect it will be. I still have all my weapons (hands, feet, knees, elbows) and if he is focused on his knife (for example), he has only one weapon.

My 2 cents....from zero experience....

Greeting Sir,

Hummm...Yeah....but respectfully, No. Let me elaborate from experience.

When ever you are faced with an empty hand vs knife situation, be very clear that you are at a HUGE, and lethal disadvantage. Your training NEEDS to reflect this. The only good thing about knife defense and knife fighting in general is that in order to get hurt, he must be able to touch you, which means that you can touch them too. But that can be of very little consolation, and is extremely risky, and I repeat, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. Even more so with a skilled and/or determined knife wielding opponent. Someone with the correct "knife fighters mindset" will use all his tools, IE: feet, elbows, knees, and especially his free hand to funnel all of your opposing elements (IE: your hands, feet, etc), into his knife. Which he will promptly cut, stab and cut some more, until he reaches his objective, which may very well be to end your life. This needs to burn and ring loud and clear in the ears of all my martial arts brothers that are not so familiar with the lethal world of knife fighting.

In order to defeat a knife fighter, we must for whatever time necessary, become a knife fighter. We must learn how they think and operate. A good knife fighter will also use his other tools and will not waste opportunities. He is not looking to knock you out, twist a joint or throw you, he is focused on cutting and stabbing you. One mistake on your part may begin to spell the end of your ability to use your skills to defend yourself. Think of a bullfight. The picadors (those guys that precede the bullfighter) use sharp short spear like weapons to stab the bull to both agitate and more importantly, to begin to bleed and weaken the bull, which the bull fighter then "battles with" by playing a dangerous game distraction, making the bull go for his cape, staying close to him and make him miss him with his sharp horns. All the while wowing the crowd with his courage and cunning and making sure he is tiring and weakening the bull. Climaxing on the moment that he pulls the sword hidden behind the cape and kills the bull with one move.

Let me say that I do not like nor enjoy bull fights, but I do understand them. In as much as we must understand the knife fighter. Like the bull fighter and his picadors, he will poke, cut and stab at targets of opportunity. He will bleed and weaken you until the moment he chooses to move in for the kill. He will keep his weapon hidden and out of reach until he is ready to use it. He does not keep it out, waving it around stupidly like the movies would have you believe. He is just waiting for the right moment to make his move and achieve his objective. It may be to scare and intimidate and even injure you. Fine, but it also may be to KILL you. Sometimes even unintentionally.

When you read in the news about persons "cut and stabbed 40 times and in critical condition, etc.", these were lucky individuals that the knife attacker either did not or could not go for the kill. How do you know what your opponents true skill and intent are? You don’t. You don’t interview each other, asking about “your style, or is this to the death, etc”. As absurd as that sounds, it is the truth. If you do not respect and have a healthy fear of a knife encounter, you are in the wrong mindset, and surely in the wrong place. A knife is no less lethal than a gun, just not as convenient or powerful from a distance. But, they are both fully capable of ending your life. This lethal capacity must be our primary concern when operating in this arena.

We must all keep this lethal objective clear in our hearts and minds when we prepare for knife fighting/defense. In this way we can then certainly use all of our tools to defend ourselves, and hope our opponent makes a mistake. But you never know. Actually we need to focus on keeping distance and arming ourselves. Not engaging to make a great disarm (which works all the time in class, with our classmates). If not we miss the boat, BIG TIME. Hopefully we will not regret it.

One of my mottos: It is much better to have the knowledge, and not the need, than vice-versa. We need to train for the day, yet hope it never comes. This is the bottom line in all true martial arts.

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba

 

[Flying Crane]

A good knife fighter will also use his other tools and will not waste opportunities. He is not looking to knock you out, twist a joint or throw you, he is focused on cutting and stabbing you.

This is pretty much what I had been pondering. If the form is focused on use of the knife, then would it not make more sense to focus on the knife most exclusively, will the addition of using the other tools (hands and feet) to create situations where the knife is ultimately most effective? If the knife is lost, then the empty hand training comes more into play, but as long as you have the knife that would really be the primary focus.

Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Makalakumu]

There are a couple of kicks in the middle that were changed from the original form and I don't really think help a knifer use the weapon. As far as some of the other techniques, I can have used some of the clear and cut in sparring situations and I have used kicks to bridge the gap in order to cut.

In FMA, I have seen some similar techniques in principle...they were not as stylized though.

 

[kyosa]

let me put a few things into perspective from my understanding of this form. First of all i believe the form was taught to grand master Hwang Kee from a native Korean who lived in Japan or Okinawa (I believe it was Mas Oyama but i am not positive ?)

Second of all the form was specifically changed by master Nelson but is very close to the original. I believe Master Nelson learned this form from Master Seiberlich but he did not like the changes that Master Nelson made to the form. I learned both the original version and Master Nelson's modified version and liked the modified version better and that is the only version i now practice.

As for the application of the form i have practiced knife work in Kali and Arnis De Mano along with Law Enforcement knife defense and I like the form overall. It gives a good basic understanding and principle use of the knife in my opinion.

 

[kyosa]

Wow I learned something of interest today-Soo Bahk Do hasn't taught this form for many years and basically it isn't part of the system anymore. However, Master Seiberlich is about to re-introduce this form to the Soo Bahk Do. It is a fun form and worth knowing IMHO and is a good introduction to knife work.

 

[Makalakumu]

That is interesting, but not surprising. SBD really doesn't have much weapons work at all. And the stuff that it does have isn't good...namely their tanto ill soo shik. I wonder if this represents an expansion of the curriculum. Coming from Master Seiberlich, it very well could be.

How exactly is the form that he teaches different from ours?

 

[MBuzzy]

Correct, in fact the only thing in the SBD curriculum right now is knife and stick defense, there are NO other weapons in the official curriculum.

Do you know if this is being done at a studio level or at the Federation level?