Tang Yik pole
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I did some correspondence with Sifu Sergio some years back and we were discussing the long pole from Yip Man lineage.
It was his belief that the pole form from the YM lineage is the first section of an 18 section form. Whether that is all that YM knew of the form or he only taught that one section is up for speculation.
But I would love to see that form...is the Tang Yik pole form the "lost form"?
It was his belief that the pole form from the YM lineage is the first section of an 18 section form. Whether that is all that YM knew of the form or he only taught that one section is up for speculation.
But I would love to see that form...is the Tang Yik pole form the "lost form"?
I don't know what the "lost form" refers to or what the 18 section pole form is. But the Tang Yik pole form has been no secret. Ip Man lineage pole is not the first section of the Tang Yik pole form. But ask yourself this......Why do so many Ip Man lineage people not only have a different pole form from each other, but don't even agree on what the "6 1/2 points" are? So I think it is unlikely that Ip Man pole is a portion of anything that came before it. I think Ip Man had the concepts of the pole and played with around with ways to apply them and varied the sequence of the moves he taught to people. Or perhaps he only taught brief movements and concepts (somewhat like the Pin Sun sets) and then others put things together in a longer form to suit themselves. Hard to say since none of us were there. But I think the pole is where we see the widest variance between Ip Man lineages. This is one area where I would have to agree with Guy and LFJ that .....given this was considered advanced training at the end of the curriculum....many people likely didn't learn much pole if at all from Ip Man, and ad libed on their own later.
As far as an "18 section pole form".....the more reasonable theory that I have heard is that there was an old "13 section spear form" and that the pole may have derived from this. The spear was done on both sides and the pole only on one. So when you do only half of the "13 section spear form" you end up with "6 1/2 point pole" form. But I don't know whether this is true or not!
Maybe. Maybe not! Many ring fighters only use 5 or 6 of their "favorite" techniques that they know very well and have a high confidence in their reliability. But they might have trained many more techniques to have in the toolbox "just in case"!
And let's face it...none of us are going to have to fight with or defend ourselves with a long pole! If you see the pole only as a conditioning tool, then you can do a relatively short form or series of drills over and over just like you would lifting weights. Or you could do a longer more challenging form that is much less boring to practice! If you see practicing the pole as preserving a fighting style or tradition and want to keep it as "reality based" as possible.....just take a look at the other pole/staff based weapons forms out their in the world of CMAs. How many of them only consist of 5 or 6 moves that can be completed in 20 to 30 seconds? Some CMAs have multiple pole forms. I don't really see the need for that. But how can you say to are preserving a practical fighting method if it is not relatively comprehensive? And how is a comprehensive fighting method going to get by on only half a dozen or so moves?
So, my biased opinion? In the case of comparing Tang Yik Pole to most of the Ip Man Pole I have seen....more is certainly better in the sense that it is more comprehensive as a fighting method.
And for those that haven't seen it yet, here is the classic footage of Tang Yik doing the pole form. Realize that this is a compilation of 3 different filmings and the whole thing is not one long form.
The astute among you might spot a movement in the form above that was intended for thrusting up and behind a bamboo shield, or one that was intended for smacking a guy rolling on the ground to try and close past the point of the pole. Are those really needed for fighting today? No! But then the pole itself isn't really need for fighting today in general!
Vajramusti
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Some considered opinions FWIW.
1. Students in IM's open classes-usually taught by some one else did not really learn IM's pole.
2. 6 1/2 is not the number of motions in IM's pole work.
4. IM's form is different from Tang Yiks and incorporates Im wing chun principles.
5 I have seen Ho Kam Ming's kwan work which he learned from IM
6 IM's pole work is not flowery neither is his hand work-just effective.No negative comments on Tang Yil intended-I respect him and his contributions.
7 it is infused with principles and concepts
8 IM's pole can be used in many directions and in both ends-the long side more frequently
but the short side as well
It should be the other way around. You can use
- "only" the spear head to stab.
- both ends of your pole to strike.
Since most staff/pole technique are double heads. Back in 1973, I asked the CMA magazine 新武侠 in Hong Kong about why the "WC 6 and 1/2 pole form" is single head. Some one from that magazine told me it came from spear form after the spear head was removed.
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John, I think KPM meant both to the left and the right, not both ends.
Yes that's right. I meant holding the pole with the left hand in front and switching to hold the pole with the right hand in front. You can see from the video I posted that the tail as well as the head of the pole are both used in Tang Yik Weng Chun.
dudewingchun
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I know nothing about history of the pole but apparently Ip man was very skilled with it and could drive a nail into a wall with his pole according to Duncan Leung who said he saw it in person.
I am not sure of your frame of reference. So if you would like to post a few videos of what you consider to be good representations of Ip Man Pole, I would be happy to point out what differences I see.
wckf92
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I think the first and most obvious would be duration(?). That Tang Yik form is quite lengthy. I think another difference may be whether different lineage pole forms contain circles, and if so, how big of a circle/huen concept, etc.
One thing for sure...I bet that old Tang Yik dude was fairly strong for his size...with a lifetime of wielding a pole form like that!
^^^ Not a lot to go on in those videos. Very short exchanges. No actual Pole form. Looking back, here is the answer I had when you asked this same question on a previous thread:
I think one of the main differences is that in Tang Yik Weng Chun the Pole rests on the lead thigh with the arms fully extended and the lead leg is used a lot to guide and power the Pole. In most Ip Man Wing Chun Pole, the Pole is held up a little higher so it doesn't harness the body motion as well. Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole also has lighter and quicker footwork. This is something that Tang Yik was known for. The weight is never back on the heels, but is kept closer to the front of the foot, even when doing the See Ping Ma or "horse stance." Sifu Tang explains the differences by saying that the Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole was "land-based" while the Wing Chun Pole was more "boat-based." Part of the legendary history behind Tang Yik Weng Chun says that Chi Sim didn't just hide out on the Red Boats. He spent a considerable amount of time at the Fei Lo temple on the Pearl River. Various people from the Tang village had the opportunity to study with him then. Since this was all "land-based" what they learned was much more mobile and essentially more "spear-like." When people on the Red Boats learned the Chi Sim Pole, they were more constrained in their training area and so couldn't move around much. They also tended to be the bigger and stronger guys that were responsible for poling the boats along the banks of the rivers. So they would naturally have a tendency to "muscle" the Pole more. So, it really comes down to....more footwork and more use of the body through the lead leg to power the Pole vs. less footwork and the Pole held higher without using the lead leg to power the pole.
Of course, the Tang Yik Pole form is much longer than most Wing Chun versions and has more techniques. There is also a dummy for training the Pole.
One story says that Ip Man visited the Dai Duk Lan on occasion and knew Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and the others. He knew Tang Yik's reputation as "King of the Long Pole" and likely saw him demonstrate on more than one occasion. But he was not Tang Yik's student and didn't learn his method. But that doesn't mean he didn't pick up on parts of the form from watching! This might explain why different Ip Man students seemed to get different Pole forms, and why they were so short. It is also noted that Tang Yik's Pole dummy was located on the roof of a nearby apartment building and not at the Dai Duk Lan warehouse. So Ip Man never saw it. Otherwise, the Pole dummy might be a regular feature of Ip Man WCK just like the wooden dummy!
Of course, all of that is more conjecture than fact!
I think one of the main differences is that in Tang Yik Weng Chun the Pole rests on the lead thigh with the arms fully extended and the lead leg is used a lot to guide and power the Pole. In most Ip Man Wing Chun Pole, the Pole is held up a little higher so it doesn't harness the body motion as well. Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole also has lighter and quicker footwork. This is something that Tang Yik was known for. The weight is never back on the heels, but is kept closer to the front of the foot, even when doing the See Ping Ma or "horse stance." Sifu Tang explains the differences by saying that the Tang Yik Weng Chun Pole was "land-based" while the Wing Chun Pole was more "boat-based." Part of the legendary history behind Tang Yik Weng Chun says that Chi Sim didn't just hide out on the Red Boats. He spent a considerable amount of time at the Fei Lo temple on the Pearl River. Various people from the Tang village had the opportunity to study with him then. Since this was all "land-based" what they learned was much more mobile and essentially more "spear-like." When people on the Red Boats learned the Chi Sim Pole, they were more constrained in their training area and so couldn't move around much. They also tended to be the bigger and stronger guys that were responsible for poling the boats along the banks of the rivers. So they would naturally have a tendency to "muscle" the Pole more. So, it really comes down to....more footwork and more use of the body through the lead leg to power the Pole vs. less footwork and the Pole held higher without using the lead leg to power the pole.
Of course, the Tang Yik Pole form is much longer than most Wing Chun versions and has more techniques. There is also a dummy for training the Pole.
One story says that Ip Man visited the Dai Duk Lan on occasion and knew Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and the others. He knew Tang Yik's reputation as "King of the Long Pole" and likely saw him demonstrate on more than one occasion. But he was not Tang Yik's student and didn't learn his method. But that doesn't mean he didn't pick up on parts of the form from watching! This might explain why different Ip Man students seemed to get different Pole forms, and why they were so short. It is also noted that Tang Yik's Pole dummy was located on the roof of a nearby apartment building and not at the Dai Duk Lan warehouse. So Ip Man never saw it. Otherwise, the Pole dummy might be a regular feature of Ip Man WCK just like the wooden dummy!
Of course, all of that is more conjecture than fact!
I did ask Sifu Tang about the length of the pole. He said the very long 8 and 9 foot poles are only for training. Back in the day they may have been used in defense when more than one guy with a pole could stand side by side. The issue with a long pole is that once an opponent gets past the point, they can be hard to deal with! The longer the pole is, the more of an issue this becomes! Sifu Tang teaches that the optimal length of the pole is 7 feet long. This is long enough to give you good advantage against other weapons, but still short enough to counter someone who might get past the point. Weight is also an issue with the length of the pole. If the pole is too heavy, then it is harder to move around very quickly to keep someone from getting past the point. The longer and heavier poles are therefore used for conditioning and the shorter and lighter poles for actual training and fighting. Sifu Tang has a pole that is only 5 feet long. But it is solid stainless steel and is a beast to train with! 
It was the same in the western world. In the late medieval and early Renn periods in Europe armies fought with formations of Pikemen. A Pike was essentially a pointed pole about from 9 to 12 feet long. They stood in formations shoulder-to-shoulder to keep the enemy from being able to close in. The "Dopplesoldat" were large men armed with 2-handed swords that were in the front of the infantry formation. Their job was to move forward and try to sweep the Pikes off-line with their large swords so the foot soldiers could close past the points.
So from that perspective, if your lineage trains exclusively with an 8 or 9 foot heavy pole, then likely it sees it as a conditioning method and not a real weapon.
It was the same in the western world. In the late medieval and early Renn periods in Europe armies fought with formations of Pikemen. A Pike was essentially a pointed pole about from 9 to 12 feet long. They stood in formations shoulder-to-shoulder to keep the enemy from being able to close in. The "Dopplesoldat" were large men armed with 2-handed swords that were in the front of the infantry formation. Their job was to move forward and try to sweep the Pikes off-line with their large swords so the foot soldiers could close past the points.
So from that perspective, if your lineage trains exclusively with an 8 or 9 foot heavy pole, then likely it sees it as a conditioning method and not a real weapon.
wckf92
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I did ask Sifu Tang about the length of the pole. He said the very long 8 and 9 foot poles are only for training. Back in the day they may have been used in defense when more than one guy with a pole could stand side by side. The issue with a long pole is that once an opponent gets past the point, they can be hard to deal with! The longer the pole is, the more of an issue this becomes! Sifu Tang teaches that the optimal length of the pole is 7 feet long. This is long enough to give you good advantage against other weapons, but still short enough to counter someone who might get past the point. Weight is also an issue with the length of the pole. If the pole is too heavy, then it is harder to move around very quickly to keep someone from getting past the point. The longer and heavier poles are therefore used for conditioning and the shorter and lighter poles for actual training and fighting. Sifu Tang has a pole that is only 5 feet long. But it is solid stainless steel and is a beast to train with!
It was the same in the western world. In the late medieval and early Renn periods in Europe armies fought with formations of Pikemen. A Pike was essentially a pointed pole about from 9 to 12 feet long. They stood in formations shoulder-to-shoulder to keep the enemy from being able to close in. The "Dopplesoldat" were large men armed with 2-handed swords that were in the front of the infantry formation. Their job was to move forward and try to sweep the Pikes off-line with their large swords so the foot soldiers could close past the points.
So from that perspective, if your lineage trains exclusively with an 8 or 9 foot heavy pole, then likely it sees it as a conditioning method and not a real weapon.
Interesting stuff. Thx.
I have a 10' for conditioning; and the typical 9' foot (also mostly used for conditioning and to hang pretty on my wall
.But for weapon length, 7 foot it is! After training and conditioning the body to handle the 10' pole, the 7' pole is super easy and can be wielded with enormous amounts of speed and power and accuracy and whip, etc. I also have a 6' pole; and another 6' pole made of metal. It makes for interesting training! hahaha
