Talking to LEO's after a physical defense

OP
T

thardey

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
1,274
Reaction score
94
Location
Southern Oregon
All good stuff, thanks a lot.

First, my karate instructor is a criminal defense lawyer, and we have an understanding. :) And I have her cell phone number in my phone.

We work together in our school to teach both self-defense, and legal use of force. :ultracool

So, what I'm expecting is some altercation occurs, I've probably left the scene, and gone a short distance away to where I would feel safe, and called 911 while moving. (If I can't get to a safe place, like a well lit parking lot, in less than a mile I was in real trouble to begin with!).
While waiting for the cops to arrive, (Point of Order here, when I was a kid, I was told the term "cops" is disrespectful. Anyone sensitive to that?) I'm sitting on the ground, easily seen.

From that point on, it's "I was scared for my life, so I tried to stop him, and I'm still pretty shaken. This is what he looks like." and "Yes Sir, no sir, can I speak to my lawyer now?"

If I'm sitting and he tells me to get up, I get up, If I'm up, and he tells me to sit, I sit. I realize I am not expected to read his mind, and I don't get demerit points for not predicting exactly what he wants. If I'm hurt, even bruises, I will probably request a ride to the hospital, to get checked out. (Around here, they can take you to the ER in their cars, I don't know if that's standard). Then they can document any wounds I've received. (And if they want to run blood work for some reason, I'm covered, too. :) ) Hopefully that will give me some time to cool down, too.

From what I've observed, being a relatively non-trusting person, is that people who feel guilty or threatened often spout a lot of pre-planned defenses involving all kinds of useless details. I don't want to work people who clam up, because they're making my life harder. Somewhere in between says confidence to me.

Also, people who are too eager to please set my alarms off, too. This includes trying to predict what I am going to ask them, and answering before I get the question out, and doing the "sorry, sorry, sorry" thing all the time.

These are the kinds of things I am trying to avoid, and your advice, especially the sit down bit has really helped me to think about how to avoid those mistakes, and have a game plan ready that hopefully helps all involved, except the punk who started all this in the first place. He's on his own.
 

Drac

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
143
Location
Ohio
Or How about "Do you know WHO I am!?" And the ever effective, "My taxes pay your salary!!" ;)

One of the offcers I know had that line (sans the taxes comment) used on him recently..His response was said said in an angy voice "So YOU'R the guy that denied me my pay raise"..He guy shut up after that...
 

MA-Caver

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
14,960
Reaction score
312
Location
Chattanooga, TN
One of the offcers I know had that line (sans the taxes comment) used on him recently..His response was said said in an angy voice "So YOU'R the guy that denied me my pay raise"..He guy shut up after that...
That was bloody brilliant! :lfao:
 

still learning

Senior Master
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
3,749
Reaction score
48
Hello, There will be times....we need to defend ourselves from an attacker....

The truth will always be the best answers to give ...(what had happen)!

As the saying goes " PREVENTION IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN THE CURE"

Therefore? .....awareness...avoidance..and not have to worry about revenge too, will make your life feel better, NO ONE WANT PROBLEMS

Best to have an attorney come to your classes (expert in this area) ...or a police officer...and explain some of the laws in self-defense..and what to say or not to say? ....BEFORE anything does happen..

Better to be prepared....Officer...."I was just minding my own business...when this person...starting cussing, yelling, and want to kill me......( I didn't mean to poke him in the eye or strike his groin, or break the nose....HE made me do it!)

OH? ..I also?... didn't mean to bang his car and when he got out...accidently run over his foot TOO? HONESTLY!

Aloha ....words can be so beautiful!
 
OP
T

thardey

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
1,274
Reaction score
94
Location
Southern Oregon
Hello, There will be times....we need to defend ourselves from an attacker....

The truth will always be the best answers to give ...(what had happen)!

As the saying goes " PREVENTION IS ALWAYS BETTER THAN THE CURE"

Therefore? .....awareness...avoidance..and not have to worry about revenge too, will make your life feel better, NO ONE WANT PROBLEMS

Best to have an attorney come to your classes (expert in this area) ...or a police officer...and explain some of the laws in self-defense..and what to say or not to say? ....BEFORE anything does happen..

Better to be prepared....Officer...."I was just minding my own business...when this person...starting cussing, yelling, and want to kill me......( I didn't mean to poke him in the eye or strike his groin, or break the nose....HE made me do it!)

OH? ..I also?... didn't mean to bang his car and when he got out...accidently run over his foot TOO? HONESTLY!

Aloha ....words can be so beautiful!

The truth, huh?

"I didn't mean to . . ." will get me in more trouble than anything. As a trained martial artist, defending myself, if I claim I wasn't trying to hurt him, then I obviously wasn't afraid of him, and then I blinded or maimed him for no justifiable reason?

Tell you what, you try that defense, and let me know how it goes.

Me? If I had to give more details, it would be along the lines of "I was scared to death, and couldn't get away. If I had my gun on me I would have shot him, but I had to do my best to kill him with my bare hands. Fortunately he gave up, so I was able to escape and call 911."
 

Andy Moynihan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
176
Location
People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
The truth, huh?

"I didn't mean to . . ." will get me in more trouble than anything. As a trained martial artist, defending myself, if I claim I wasn't trying to hurt him, then I obviously wasn't afraid of him, and then I blinded or maimed him for no justifiable reason?

Tell you what, you try that defense, and let me know how it goes.

Me? If I had to give more details, it would be along the lines of "I was scared to death, and couldn't get away. If I had my gun on me I would have shot him, but I had to do my best to kill him with my bare hands. Fortunately he gave up, so I was able to escape and call 911."

One tweak i would suggest:

Replace "kill" with "stop".

There is no "shooting/attacking to wound" or "shooting/attacking to kill".

There is ONLY "Shooting/attacking to *STOP*".

You did nothing to wound, and did nothing to kill. You did what was needed to STOP THE THREAT, and ONLY stop the threat.

Whether a wounding or fatality resulted, it did not result out of your specific intention but out of the situational requirements of STOPPING the threat.

The distinction is that subtle but that real--if you can get to treating it like that---like nothing but simply work that must be done--it could help in court--I'm sure any number of our firearms enthusiasts or LEOs on the forum could tell you any number of stories about someone making the "shoot to wound" mistake and ending up having to pay an absurd amount to the miscreant each month for life, or end up in prison, or otherwise get savagely asshurt by the legal system because it was determined that the decision to "wound" constituted a presence of mind not consistent with the fear for one's life necessary to justifying deadly force.
 
OP
T

thardey

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 13, 2007
Messages
1,274
Reaction score
94
Location
Southern Oregon
One tweak i would suggest:

There is no "shooting/attacking to wound" or "shooting/attacking to kill".

There is ONLY "Shooting/attacking to *STOP*".

You did nothing to wound, and did nothing to kill. You did what was needed to STOP THE THREAT, and ONLY stop the threat.


Excellent point. Even the slightest change of a word can mean a great deal in a legal sense.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,511
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Northern VA
As every MA has his/her way of doing things, every cop has their way of doing things..Speaking only for myself, if I make a traffic stop and I suddenly see the subject vehicle's occupant suddenly start rummaging around inside his interior it has a tendency to make ALL THE ALARMS GO OFF..When I pull up and someone and they just sit there and I walk up and find both hands on the wheel or in their lap I feel a whole lot better..So I would (and a number of officers I work with) would have no problem dealing with you..Your practice is A-OK with me..I do it when I get stopped...

So do I...

The cops that want you to have your paperwork ready for them are (by and large) ticket writers. They begrudge every wasted moment during a stop, because that means that they'll be longer getting back to their fishing hole. With many of them, you could almost have a foot high stack of kilo bricks of coke with a couple of sawed off shotguns sitting on the passenger seat of your car (and a sign "I've got the dope!" in the rear window) and they won't even blink as they write you for the heinious offense of an expired registration.

The least movement without direction is the safest thing. But I do want to see your hands. Keep 'em out of your pockets, or on top of the steering wheel. Be polite & be honest, and DO WHAT THE COPS SAY! They may do a felony takedown on you for some reason; maybe you or your car is close to the description of one involved in an armed robbery 20 minutes ago. Maybe that cop is just paranoid. It doesn't matter; go with the flow. It can be sorted out and explained when everything is controlled.
 

Drac

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
22,738
Reaction score
143
Location
Ohio
Be polite & be honest, and DO WHAT THE COPS SAY! They may do a felony takedown on you for some reason; maybe you or your car is close to the description of one involved in an armed robbery 20 minutes ago

VERY true I was once removed from my vehicle at gun point, and when they found the gun on my hip during the inital patdown things got REAL ugly..Why because my car and description matched an armed suspect that just robbed a Seven 11..When it was finally revealed that I was one of them, we shook hands and went for a cup of coffee..
 

Andy Moynihan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
176
Location
People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
VERY true I was once removed from my vehicle at gun point, and when the found the gun on my hip during the inital patdown things got REAL ugly..Why because my car and description matched an armed suspect that just robbed a Seven 11..When it was finally revealed that I was one of them, we shook hands and went for a cup of coffee..

THAT had to have been a nasty bit of cardiac theatre right there....:O
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
23,511
Reaction score
3,852
Location
Northern VA
Not all witnesses see EVERYTHING from the beginning and they may have just turned around in time to see you performing the kenpo "dance of death" (or other Art equivalent) on the guy and missed him throwing that right hook to your face.

That's like in football. It's the guy who punches *back* that gets the foul because by that time the officials have been alerted to the commotion.

I guess that's why it's important that if something is about to go down, you get everyone's attention *before* the first shot is thrown
Infamous "eyewitness" statement at a crash scene...

Witness: "Officer, I saw it ALL! That guy caused the crash; it's his fault!"
Cop: "OK, great. Tell me what you saw."
Witness" "I heard a crash, then I turned around and I saw that car going this way..."

Returning to the original topic...

Let me share one real life event that can maybe help understand why I would encourage you do give some basic info to the responding cop.

I got dispatched to an assault. Victim is on scene, we'll call him Fred for convenience. He's got a good bloody nose. Suspect, let's call him Sam, has left. Fred proceeds to tell me that he was working inside, when Sam came into and yelled at him. They went outside, and Sam hit him in the nose. Witnesses give reasonably similar accounts; Fred and Sam argue inside, they go outside, and there's some disagreement on whether Fred was charging Sam or Sam just hit him. At this point, Fred decides he needs an ambulance. Off he goes...

Well, I chase down Sam the Suspect. And I learn some details... It seems that Fred took it upon himself to move Sam's car. Sam goes in to tell Fred not to do this, and Fred yells at Sam. Sam goes outside... Fred follows him. Fred advances on Sam (who is considerably larger). Sam puts his hand out, and kind of half holds off, half slaps Fred, telling him to back off. Fred swings at Sam, and Sam pops him.

I later verify several of the details with Fred -- who still doesn't think he played any role in causing the dispute. Anybody agree with Fred? I didn't, and I refused to seek a warrant myself. Because a citizen can go before the magistrate himself, and Fred did, and that appearance is pretty one-sided, Sam did end up arrested. And the outcome highlights another important detail... Sam got himself railroaded because he didn't get a lawyer, and didn't insist on a translator.

My teacher had a saying: By the time a fool learns the rules, the players have left the field. If you're in court, and especially if your liberty is at jeopardy, GET A LAWYER.
 

MA-Caver

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
14,960
Reaction score
312
Location
Chattanooga, TN
Infamous "eyewitness" statement at a crash scene...

Witness: "Officer, I saw it ALL! That guy caused the crash; it's his fault!"
Cop: "OK, great. Tell me what you saw."
Witness" "I heard a crash, then I turned around and I saw that car going this way..."
Hee hee that reminds me of something from that old National Lampoon Magazine where they have true quotes or stories that are just too real to believe...
From an insurance form: "An invisible car came out of nowhere hit me and disappeared."

still learning said:
Better to be prepared....Officer...."I was just minding my own business...when this person...starting cussing, yelling, and want to kill me......( I didn't mean to poke him in the eye or strike his groin, or break the nose....HE made me do it!)
Be careful with that one as well. Anyone with any awareness of human relations and self-accountablity should realize that no-one MAKES you do anything. You always, always choose to do whatever your response is to whatever is being said or done.
So saying that an attacker MADE you tap-dance on his head after stealing his peach and crushing his windpipe... uhh, if I were an officer I'd kinda have to mull that one over for about.... two seconds. As I mentioned on another thread you can always control how severe your retaliat---err defense is against someone's attack.
 

Latest Discussions

Top