Take out the old & bring in the new

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

I think its a matter of diminishing returns. By this I mean that the more material you throw-out for a person to master the more they risk becoming a jack of all trades and a master of none. I remember reading that the Shaolin Temple reputedly grew to have so much material that it had to be reorganized along 12 separate lines, each purportedly under its own animal totem. People seeking to learn Shaolin material found that they could only really "specialize" in one or two of the lines. There was simply too much material to learn. Traditionally what happens is that different teachers come along, each with their own take on what is "really" important and reshuffle things dropping some stuff and adding others. The result is what is loosely called a new "style". In reality it is merely a re-shuffle along some alternate set of teaching priorities. Look what happened with Chen Tai Chi as it transitioned to Yang then Son then Wu. In Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido we have six weapons, for instance, one for each of the 6 dan ranks. The idea is not to become a "master" of the weapon but to learn from the weapon and discern how it interfaces with other weapons and MT Hand material. Usually individuals are drawn towards one weapon or another and begin to study it in depth while only learning superficial things about the other weapons. I think the techniques of TKD and TSD could probably be dealt with in much the same way. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[TigerWoman]

It used to be in our school that the student had to reach black belt to be able to learn a weapon. My son was patient and leapt at the chance to finally learn nunchuks. Actually he got quite obsessive with it and practiced continually up and down our hallways. He competed alot with them too and I think he surpassed our master and so does he. My son taught him moves. Then, a young boy who competes internationally now with the bo, Wayne –– , can't remember his whole name happened to be always competing with my son. At one time, I remember the judges telling him that he almost won, but he had a slight slip. I always helped him with his form and he would show it to the master before the tournament. Anyway, my son eventually got disinterested after a slew of failures in tournaments, (Wayne, competing too many events against same person -got tired, and political- against a visiting BB adult) and not any help from the master.

Then the master started teaching bo and nunchuks to anybody in special classes, usually a month apart. Haven't seen anyone continue. I tried both, bo for a while but liked nunchuks better. But no time to do it, no place at home, no guidance, and I had to practice alone at the dojang and no one else was doing them then, so I faded on that. Now, he has red belt and above doing a demo weapons and team form. Very elemental nunchuks. They just practice every Saturday and have developed a simple form. I suggested that he bring nunchuks into the noon class since it is usually six black belts and four upper rank plus a couple of advanced teens-not all come. I think for adults, it has to be incorporated into the regular program but then I can see there is not much time for most. Most just go three times a week. With that its hard to do anything more in addition to cardio, forms, self defense, technique practice, strength building/maintenance, slow motion practice, breaking practice for upcoming tests, 3 tournaments- Year, BB biannual recerts. and demos. So it pretty much needs an ongoing special weekly class like the demo team's but when. I've been lobbying for a special black belt class but that's not happening either. Our master/instructor/kwanjan travels to five cities during the week. Only 2 - 2nd dans. Hasn't retained BB's. So that is my experience with weapons.
.

 

[MichiganTKD]

Our Instructor did work with us on correct falling techniques to be used during free fighting so that if we got knocked out, we would not fall backward and risk hitting our head on the floor.
But I also think correct falling and rolling is important to know so that if you are thrown, pushed, or slip you minimize risk of injury.

 

[Marginal]

Takedowns and locks are not a priority in our discipline. You just have to respect that.

Not being a priority doesn't mean it's not useful to know how to escape a headlock, or how to effect a throw should the opportunity present itself etc. Breakfalls especially come in handy in a lot of areas. (Spare someone some pain if they end up falling while trying to execute a kick at the very least.) Use the locks to set up strikes...

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

".....Then the master started teaching bo and nunchuks to anybody in special classes, usually a month apart. Haven't seen anyone continue. I tried both, bo for a while but liked nunchuks better. But no time to do it, no place at home, no guidance, and I had to practice alone at the dojang and no one else was doing them then, so I faded on that. Now, he has red belt and above doing a demo weapons and team form. Very elemental nunchuks. They just practice every Saturday and have developed a simple form. I suggested that he bring nunchuks into the noon class since it is usually six black belts and four upper rank plus a couple of advanced teens-not all come. I think for adults, it has to be incorporated into the regular program but then I can see there is not much time for most....."

Not to put you on the spot, by why did the training at the TKD school not focus on more traditional Korean weapons? There is quite a bit of truely fine resources regarding many of the weapons in the MYTBTJ. Was there a reason your school (or you personally) chose not to delve into these?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[TigerWoman]

Not being a priority doesn't mean it's not useful to know how to escape a headlock, or how to effect a throw should the opportunity present itself etc. Breakfalls especially come in handy in a lot of areas. (Spare someone some pain if they end up falling while trying to execute a kick at the very least.) Use the locks to set up strikes...

Yeah, we do that--learn how to fall. But when you are a white, yellow, orange, you can hardly control your body too well... We don't learn takedowns, locks either for the same reason. They're getting enough information to learn.

 

[TigerWoman]

Not to put you on the spot, by why did the training at the TKD school not focus on more traditional Korean weapons? There is quite a bit of truely fine resources regarding many of the weapons in the MYTBTJ. Was there a reason your school (or you personally) chose not to delve into these areas.

I really don't think he knew how to teach any others at least, he never indicated it to me. Are you supposed to learn certain weapons or pick a weapon for testing, each Dan rank in WTF style? Anybody know? I don't know specifically what those weapons are. I would be interested in learning if you could list them, maybe a line about them. I've also seen the Kama, Short Staff, Sai, Tonfa, and some kind of a sword in tournaments but don't know anything about them. TW

 

[Disco]

As glad2bhere stated, there are many Korean weapons that could be taught/learned, but in TKD it is not mandatory to learn weapons. Now each school or particular style of TKD can and some do include some weapons training, but WTF guidelines don't list any requirements for weapons training.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

Disco is right on the money so I think I need to reinterate that what you are hearing from me is my own personal agenda. I don't practice TKD or TSD so what I DON'T know about these arts would probably fill a small library. The only reason I raise the issue was not to put you on the spot or cause you to question your training, as such. Rather, I picked up on the mention of what are usually identified as Okinawan or Japanese items. As a traditionalist I push strongly for people who train in Korean arts to reflect on Korean items or at least the Korean manner of using things. Now its true that some time ago there was little material on Korean weaponry or martial traditions, bvut there is a steadily growing number of resources that are available and can be the foundation for further research. Here are some examples with acknowledgment to Turtle Press.

1.) The Mu Yei ToBo Tong Ji ("Illustrated Comprehensive Manual of Martial Training") was translated by Dr. Sang Kim and published in 2000. It gives a great picture of the nature of martial training as seen at the time (1795) the book was written. The book itself is a revised work of previous works which each focused on martial training that the Korean government thought its military needed to know.

2.) In hand with the above book there are two Video tapes which put the material in motion so you can get an idea of how the formas in the book might look if done today. I personally don't agree with all of the interpretations but at least its a start.

3.) It IS possible to use things that we have today to investigate these more authentic forms. For instance, you mentioned the Okinawan nunchuka. This is not a martial art weapon but a civil art weapon that the Okinawans were said to have used. However, if you look in the MYTBTJ you will find that the Korean Flail (a polearm) called "Pyon Kon" could be examined perhaps using a nunchuka. The same goes for the swordsmanship. Though the Koreans used fvie different types of swords (two of which were polearms) you could still at least "play" with the material using a wooden sword ("muk gum") or a cheap katana to go through the motions.

Please don't confuse my personal interests and agendas as casting aspirsions on your training. My hope is only that I might wet your appetite for more authntic study.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[TigerWoman]

Dear Bruce,

No, I don't think that all about my training...and I appreciate your effort. My weapons training has gone no where. I don't know if, at this point, that I want to pick weapons up again. But that text, does sound very interesting and I would like to investigate it. I'm an avid reader anyway but hope its not too hard to read in its translation. I can do computer manuals just fine but oriental mind think is a little hard for me sometimes. The videos probably would give me a better idea Thanks,
Regards, TW

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Tigerwoman:

Right on!

I think you would get more out of the tapes as well. Dr Sang Kim did a fine job translating to English, but he is not a Korean weapons person. Many of his translations would have read much differently had he imbued the translation with some hands-on experience rather than just translate the characters to words. All the same its a good start. Enjoy!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

BTW: I just noticed that you are from Minnesota.

I will be taking a road trip with The Boss to the annual Summer Seminar in Sault Ste Marie. I think the dates are July 2-4th. People who want to expand their material or awareness gather for what has become a truely great event. Though its sponsored by the NKMAA and is held by Master Timmermans' school in SSM, folks who not only practice other varieties of Hapkido arts but TKD, TSD and even the odd Japanese tradition are known to show up and always warmly welcomed. If you want to connect with me, it won't be hard to do. I'll be the only person there in the company of a tiny young lady of Scottish extraction. And don't let her size fool ya'!! With the blood she has in HER veins she doesn't NEED MA to keep me in line!!

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Though its sponsored by the NKMAA and is held by Master Timmermans' school in SSM, folks who not only practice other varieties of Hapkido arts but TKD, TSD and even the odd Japanese tradition are known to show up and always warmly welcomed.
Bruce

This is a revival of what used to be an event that had a hundred or so people stay right in my back yard in tents. With the intent of the event being training, people leave politics home and just have a blast. No one even bothers to look at the patch you wear. Respect for one another and the arts in general is what drives this thing :asian:

Please know that I have not had this event since 1998 (when I left the World Kuk Sool Association), so I am sure we won't have many people this year. I know it will take time to build it up again, but I am determined.
There is always a silver lining in the cloud, so lack of numbers simply means we have more one on one training.

 

[Littledragon]

Why have so many schools that teach Tae Kwon Do stop teaching the self defense aspect of the art. I mean joint lock and take downs and real life self defense, not that show me stuff, you see at every tournament....God Bless America .

Yes that is very true. The majority of Tae Kwon Do school's today just teach for competition and the sport aspect, they lack the true foundations of self defense that should be present in martial arts. I see in Tae Kwon Do schools saying that they teach self defense but really just teach how to score a point in a tournament. I think the sport aspect is great for competition but the students learning only sport are just cheating themselves. They can be a world champion in the sport Tae Kwon Do and have no clue what to do if they are in a street situation, in the street you are not fighting for a point but fighting for your life..


Tarek :asian:

 

[terryl965]

Very well said little dragon, you are able to see what most people cannot you will be a wise man by the time your 20. keep up the great work and again great pics. GOD BLESS AMERICA

 

[Littledragon]

Very well said little dragon, you are able to see what most people cannot you will be a wise man by the time your 20. keep up the great work and again great pics. GOD BLESS AMERICA

Thank you for the compliments.

Tarek