Tai Chi and Self Defense

[TheBattousai]

How many people here study the interpratations of the movements in Tai Chi to turn them into techniques for self-defense (i.e. throws, jointlocks, hand strikes, kicks, etc.)? Just curious if whether people veiw Tai Chi as an exercise for ones health or a MA (mainly self defense, but others too)

 

[tshadowchaser]

I have had a little experence in Tai Chi and found that I was able to see the self defence movements in it and transfer them to what I do

 

[TheBattousai]

I have had a little experence in Tai Chi and found that I was able to see the self defence movements in it and transfer them to what I do

What is it that you do, out of curiousity?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I saw a clip a while back on an instructor showing various parts of Tai Chi, then showing the combat application of the movements. It was very interesting. I'll try and dig up my notes. I've done some work with a few people and been tossed, taken down, etc. It's got good practicality, if you have a teacher who understands it. Too many TaiChi classes are simply 'yoga'. I'm looking into taking classes again locally as one of my clients is now sanctioned by the Yang family, and Yang style is I believe the most 'martial'.

 

[arnisador]

I don't think Yang is necessarily the most martial, even if we restrict ourselves to the five major families. But, it can certainly be done in a martial way!

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, students of Chen would disagree
It is however heavy in martial applications.

I hope everything goes well with your classes.

7sm

 

[TheBattousai]

Speaking of things, the 13 traditional postures(names may vary):
Ward Off
Roll Back
Press
Push
Split
Pull
Shoulder Strike
Elbow Strike
Center
Adavnce
Retreat
Turn Left
Turn Right

What are some thoughts about them in general? Like are they enough for self defense only or should some Pa Ku and Hsing I be incorparated into it or have some very something simular to those added too.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

One person I spoke to suggested that adding the others would be ok, but only after a few years of training. I think it depends on you, your ability to absorb and understand, as well as the time you can devote to it.

 

[East Winds]

TheBattousai,
If you are training a traditional from of Taijiquan (i.e. one of the mainstream family forms and not a hybrid) you should not need to add anything to it. In fact adding to it (Bagua or Xing-Yi) will conflict quite markedly with the essences of the form. By all means practise Taijiquan and Bagua or Xing-Yi (or for that matter Liu Ho Pa Fa which is a synthesis of all these forms anyway) but do not try and mix them. Quite simply you cannot pick and mix!! At least not if you wish to get the full benefits that are available from Taijiquan.

Very best wishes
Alistair Sutherland

 

[dmax999]

Tai Chi can easily be used for self defense. I recently read about a gang member in the 70s or 80s in California somewhere that was the big tough on the street because of his Tai Chi. Gotta look up more information on that though. Was in the latest issue of KungFu Tai Chi magazine. I'll see if I can find it again with specifics and see if I can find any other references to him.

 

[TheBattousai]

I really wasn't speaking about changing or adding anything but more about the expansion of the movements to show the full range of motion. Like taking the ward off and showing the full range of an outer circular movement. Mainly, this would be shown in a kata though. But thinking of Pa Kua and Hsing I, they are really interconnected anyway, so adding full forms of those in Tai chi isn't needed. (Please ignore the above statement regarding those arts in a previous post).

 

[arnisador]

I'm no expert on internal CMAs, but my understanding is that for self-defense one should consider Xingyi (Hsing-I) or Ba Gua as the main system and Tai Chi as an adjunct. Yes, Tai Chi can be good for self-defense, but it takes a long time to develop it as such, and its repertoire is in many cases limited (a basic punch, one or two kicks, and lots of pushing people off balance). You may need more options for the self-defense scenarios you envision--at least, until you get very good at Tai Chi, at which point one is supple and balanced enough that attacks are often avoided and there is little need for a response anyway. (Landing a blow on a good Tai Chi practitioner can be as hard as doing so on a good Aikidoka.) So, I would say that unless the instructor has a strong self-defense focus, adding another internal art has definite self-defense value.

 

[chi-ca]

How many people here study the interpratations of the movements in Tai Chi to turn them into techniques for self-defense (i.e. throws, jointlocks, hand strikes, kicks, etc.)? Just curious if whether people veiw Tai Chi as an exercise for ones health or a MA (mainly self defense, but others too)

Taiji absolutely has martial applications. In my school we practice the form and then use the postures from the form in drills. We often discuss how moves are used in self defense -- right down to the angle of the toe and the turn of a hand.

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, Tai Chi can be good for self-defense, but it takes a long time to develop it as such, and its repertoire is in many cases limited (a basic punch, one or two kicks, and lots of pushing people off balance).

Dont underestimate the adventageousness of "pushing people off balance". If the attacker is "off balance" he/she can no longer attack. Also, without their balance, its pretty easy to attack them yourself.

I wouldn't agree that the "repertoire" is limited. While the focus is on balance, the chin na, punches and kicks are quite extensive. It just takes an instructor with good knowledge and experience to teach it.

7sm

 

[pete]

It just takes an instructor with good knowledge and experience to teach it.

so true, for all arts and styles including, but not limited to, tai chi.

 

[arnisador]

Dont underestimate the adventageousness of "pushing people off balance". If the attacker is "off balance" he/she can no longer attack. Also, without their balance, its pretty easy to attack them yourself.

Oh, I absolutely agree! In fact, it's a big part of how I fight, and I would also mention that a strong push can cause considerable injury from the resulting fall. If memory serves, Paul Crompton's Self Defense for Today (Escape Is the Best Form of Self Defence) (or another book from him) advocates building a system around it.

But I still believe it is limited compared to some other systems. This approach won't help as much against a jab or long-range kick, for example. It is indeed easier to attack them after they're off-balanced, but look at, say, Yang Tai Chi--you see, basically, and uppercut to the stomach area and a straight punch to the face for punches. It seems a bit limited in breadth!

 

[East Winds]

Arnisador,

Sorry, got to take you to task about the "limitations" of Yang style Taijiquan.
What about "Fist under elbow" for a devastating rib fracture. What about "Separations and the Kick sequence" for downing your opponent by dislocating knees. What about "Needle to sea bottom" for an effective downing of your opponent. What about "Snake creeps down" to upend and down your opponent. "Parting the horse mane" for downing an oppponent. I could of course go on and descibe every posture in the long form, as each has at least one effective application. Like I said earlier,if you study Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan you have a formidable array of fighting techniques. If you study some of the hybrids or Wushu forms, then I agree, you are severly limited. If you cannot retreat from a conflict situation, then the only alternative is to take the innitiative away from the agressor and down him. No maybees or buts. How you do it of course is up to you. A swift kick in the nuts is surprisingly effective.

Very best wishes

 

[arnisador]

I think Tai Chi is good for self-defense; no argument. But I also think supplementing it with Kung Fu usually makes sense. Only your first example is a punch, right? Most of your examples are, essentially, locks and take-downs at grappling range. That's fine...but doesn't Baguazhang, say, offer a wider range of responses? Isn't there some value in that?

Please don't think I don't see the combative value of Tai Chi...but I do think that it's not as well-rounded as some arts, and the emphasis on Chin Na style techniques means that adding some striking can help.

 

[mantis]

i believe the way my school teaches is they tentatively consider tai chi the soft and kung fu the hard (although it's soft and hard)
however they map each of the forms, moves, and postures to SD situations and that's done in KF, tai chi classes as well as SD seminars they host!
believe it or not they teach us how breathing exercises are used in self-defense!!
my point is what matters is the person who's teaching and how they are teaching regardless of your style of Tai Chi

 

[pete]

i gotta step in here and say, whoa....

I also think supplementing it with Kung Fu usually makes sense...I do think that it's not as well-rounded as some arts

first off, arnisador: on what experience or who's word are you basing your advice?

when you say 'kung fu', should i assume you to mean a shaolin or 'external' style? please, i only wish to use the word external for clarity and not to get into the internal vs external debate. if i assume correctly, i'd have to say its a bad idea, and its proliference to 'toughen up' tai chi is the 'yang' excess to the proverbial new-ager non-violent 'yin' deficiency. not a good idea in my opinion. good tai chi, as taught by a knowledgeable and skilled teacher is a complete martial art. complete meaning, it contains punching, kicking, wrestling and chin na, as well as defenses against each.

have you considered that perhaps YOU just haven't developed the proper understanding of the martial components of tai chi, either by YOUR investment into training, or YOUR INSTRUCTOR'S level of proficiency?

if you study Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan you have a formidable array of fighting techniques. If you study some of the hybrids or Wushu forms, then I agree, you are severly limited.

East Winds, i respect your perspectives on this and other related discussions here on Martial Talk, but must ask you to clarify this statement. The style of tai chi that i practice is not one of the five major family forms, technically it is a 3rd generation derivative of Chen. There is significant Bagua influence and subtle hints of Hsing-I, with much of the hard-stepping and explicit "fa li" removed in place of a more fluid continuity stressing coiling "chan-si". This practice is far from being 'severely limited' as you may be suggesting a hybrid style may be, or anything aside from the Traditional Yang Family form.

pete.