Taekwondo: Art versus sport

[terryl965]

Dancingalone here is my BB test for 15 and up, the younger ones do about 25% compared to the adults and the list is long.

Day 1 Conditioning 500 push ups, sit ups, crunches, sqaut thurst, sqaurts, calf raises, JNJs,MTn Climbers and run five miles.

Day 2 we start of with punches - Lead hand reverse, lead hand ridge hand, lead hand backfist, lead hand uppercut, leadhand hook, lead hand overhand, hammerfist. This is normanly around 100 on each side. Once we are done with that it goes to kicks and we do about 50 kicks on both legs - fast Kick, blrh,axe kick all variations, crestcent kick, inside out/outside in, back swing, heal rake, back kick, side kick all variation as well. On a bad day they throws around 10,000 kicks and 5000 punches. Afterwards it is time for one steps they need to preform atleast 25, then two step which is 20 and three steps which is 15. Now it is time for poomsae all the tae gueks, all the Tuls, and even the Palgues.

Day 3 is simply sparing one on one and then two on one and then three on one. It consist of about thirty fights. This is too make sure they have the heart to be a BB. If they do the sport they also have fights withen there sport as well as point and continous point sparring. They must also demostrate they have good enough ground game as well and also there self defense. The last thing is breaking one, two and three boards and also bricks.

One thing I forgot to mention is there essay and question and answer part which is difficult for some because they really do hate that part. I have always believe a test is about how much you are willing to go to be a BB, I already know they have talent or skill but are the mentally ready for it and that is the whole part of there test.

Not trying to get into a pissing match but I expect alot and that is why it takes five to seven years to get to BB with me and it takes that long for a poom ranks as well. I do not believe in givivng rank or buying rank just earn it you will be so much happier when it is done right.

 

[Twin Fist]

Not every sport TKD-er ignores the art. it IS possible to do both.

It is a poor assumption on those who stereotype sport TKD-ers to think that all they do is sport and dont practice the art. it is possible to do both.

you cant do them both WELL

they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.

you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.

 

[dancingalone]

Terry, the only question I would have is about "they must also demostrate they have good enough ground game as well and also there self defense."

Again it has to do with how detailed you choose to be. The other items you list in bareform are certainly attainable in practice along with sports sparring. And in fact, a lot of sport sparring would likely prepare you well for the test you describe.

I can see why you say you teach both. It's not my vision of TMA though. I say that with all due respect. No insult meant at all.

 

[terryl965]

you cant do them both WELL

they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.

you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.

Just because you have not does not mean they cannot. TW I train people all the time in both some adapt to it others go one way or the other, it is solely up to each individual as to what is more important at that time in there life. Remember all great Martial Artist at one time or another have done some type of tournament whether it is at anactual event or just inside the dojo/dojaang. Please go and tell GM Kurban that tournament sparing is the thing that destroys TKD and listen to him tell you why it can and should co-exist with each other. People that do Olympic or point still learn the Art if they chooses to.

 

[terryl965]

Terry, the only question I would have is about "they must also demostrate they have good enough ground game as well and also there self defense."

Again it has to do with how detailed you choose to be. The other items you list in bareform are certainly attainable in practice along with sports sparring. And in fact, a lot of sport sparring would likely prepare you well for the test you describe.

I can see why you say you teach both. It's not my vision of TMA though. I say that with all due respect. No insult meant at all.

I can appreciate everything you say and I do not believe you are trying to insult anybody, it is hard sometimes to put in words everything you require as a school but believe me I only want the best for all my students. I mean if they are simply here to get in shape I expect alot from them or if they are here to loose wieght the same. I believe the TMA has a different goal for each student and can see where some can believ and others cannot. I simply think we all can respect each other enough and have a decussion about anything here without the flame wars that keep popping up all the time.:asian:

 

[Twin Fist]

we Terry, all I can say is that i havnt seen it.

maybe it is possible, but i aint never seen it.

 

[terryl965]

we Terry, all I can say is that i havnt seen it.

maybe it is possible, but i aint never seen it.

I understand TW and like always I respect your point of view all I am saying it can be done. Now with that being said I do not believe that 99% of Olympic fighters can train both ways but from the standpoint of learning tradition first and then Olympic it can be done and I have seen it.

 

[dortiz]

" Why is it bad to do both and become efficent at them both at the same time? I see plenty of dual athletes in other sports"

Big difference! You fight as you train.

I like what sport TKD is and get what it offers. But what it does not do is teach self defense or good fighting skills.

Talk to the pioneers. Conditioning, hard sparring, learning to take shots and keep fighting- severe training. It is a Killing Art.
Sorry but sport TKD needs the arms down for speed and balance etc. This does not work for fighting. I cant win a point to save my life but except for a few I can take out just about all I spar with. Thats because I fight different. I condition my shins and block with them, heck I kick with them. I NEVER spar with hands down and always strike to the head. Again point/sport I suck but I can knock some of the best down, So in self defense I am a winner but in sport I am suckerama supreme.
I think you can work in some stuff and yes afterwards change the focus but to do both is not like playing baseball and football. We are talking about muscle memory and response which you do based on how you train. If you practice for rules you will respond as such.
THIS DOES NOT MAKE SPORT BAD. It does make translating to self defense harder.
Exceptions yes but the rule will be no. The average person wont be able to teach themselves to do two different responses. Those that do, wow.

Dave O.

 

[terryl965]

Dortiz I can see your point but I still believe it can be done, I know I am still here because of my skills and I know both sides of TKD sport/SD. I guess it is the good lords intention for me to be here so in the end how many MA'ers ever really use what they have been tought what like less than one percent?

 

[MSUTKD]

you cant do them both WELL

they are dimetricly opposed to each other, they both teach habits that DO NOT WORK on the other side.

you CAN do both, but i have YET to see someone that could do both WELL.

I can ...... but I am in shape.

 

[Gorilla]

I can ...... but I am in shape.

Many can!!!

 

[dortiz]

Ron do you also point spar as well as form competition.? I ask because your form skills clearly translate to a more self defense based style. I bet if you do both the forms provide the balance. I worry more about the very competitive schools some of which don't do the forms at all.
And they don't have to, its just that many claim self defense when its not.

Also yup, you have to be in shape to fight. : )

Dave O.

 

[Gorilla]

Ron do you also point spar as well as form competition.? I ask because your form skills clearly translate to a more self defense based style. I bet if you do both the forms provide the balance. I worry more about the very competitive schools some of which don't do the forms at all.
And they don't have to, its just that many claim self defense when its not.

Also yup, you have to be in shape to fight. : )

Dave O.

"And they don't have to, its just that many claim self defense when its not". dortiz

I don't know anyone in Sport TKD that claims it is self defense. It is a Sport!!! The level of fitness that is required to do Sport TKD at a high level helps in self defense. The way that you fight in Sport TKD would get you hurt in a Self Defense situation.

 

[Twin Fist]

I can ...... but I am in shape.

Michigan?

oh man, not again.

ok, assuming you are not who i think you are, if you have to say you can, and do so WHILE taking a cheap shot, you prob cant.

 

[dortiz]

I have been around the block long enough to spot who can walk the talk, and he can

Dave O.

 

[d1jinx]

ok....

Another stereotype that keeps getting thrown around...

ALL olympic style TKD-ers fight with thier hands down... I dont.

Sure many do, but that is one of my biggest pet peeves. I HATE seeing people flopping around with their hands by thier knees.....

I enjoy tie-ing their belts around their chest with thier arms up and hands at thier chin...

You can do sport TKD with your hands up u know!

 

[d1jinx]

I have been around the block long enough to spot who can walk the talk, and he can

Dave O.

Who? i missed something.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

ok....

Another stereotype that keeps getting thrown around...

ALL olympic style TKD-ers fight with thier hands down... I dont.

Sure many do, but that is one of my biggest pet peeves. I HATE seeing people flopping around with their hands by thier knees.....

I enjoy tie-ing their belts around their chest with thier arms up and hands at thier chin...

You can do sport TKD with your hands up u know!

Unless you are in the olympics, you are not an olympic taekwondoist. Schools that train 'olympic' style are simply sparring under WTF rules. Technically, there is no olympic style. Nor is there a WTF style. Kind of like there is not a UFC style. Just a tournament with a set of specific rules.

For the record, I do not keep my hand down either. I am proficient in sparring, though hardly elite. I do not have the interest in the sport to devote the time to it to become elite. My hat is off to those who do.

Sadly, my time is finite, so I spend it doing what offers me the greatest returns, and sport taekwondo is not it. I do still participate in that portion of the class and I do compete when the school goes to tournaments, but I look really out of place when I do. For me, WTF sparring is a means of improving my kicks. If I do well (sometimes I do) then so much the better.

My personal school of thought is that one should not train to the tournament. Train to be the best that you can be. Then go to the tournament, use what they allow and see how you do.

Daniel

 

[MSUTKD]

Michigan?

oh man, not again.

ok, assuming you are not who i think you are, if you have to say you can, and do so WHILE taking a cheap shot, you prob cant.

John, you know who I am. We are even Facebook buds.

ron

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Substitute proficient for elite if you'd like. I don't think it changes the equation. If you're spending 2-4 hours a day on sport sparring, you don't have room for anything else. Unless you don't have a job or schooling, I guess.

Well, I agree with you about the math, but to be merely proficient in the technique set does not require that level of daily commitment. To be competitive? That is another story. To be elite? Better have a sponsor.

I spend time practicing daily, generally at different times throughout the day rather than all in one block. I make four classes a week in both taekwondo and hapkido. Two to three a week in kumdo (he only has three days where the class is held at present), one day of which I teach. Hapkido and kumdo I am pouring a lot of myself into. Taekwondo I pretty much do maintenance training and teach one of the kids classes.

I am certainly proficient in fighting under the WTF rule set. But I do not train to the rule set. I simply train to execute the techniques of the art to the best of my ability. When doing WTF sparring, I simply limit myself to the legal techniques. As I said in my other thread, I look very much different from the typical WTF sport taekwondoist.

I definitely hear you on the time thing, and most likely, TKD will shift to back burner next year, as there are only but so many hours in the day.

Daniel