Sum Nung article

Discussion in 'Wing Chun' started by wckf92, Jul 13, 2018.

  1. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    Downloaded an interesting article from scribd with the title of "What Sum Nung said about Yip Man". It was a 4 pg article.
    But this caught my attention:

    20180713_173004.jpg

    Can anyone shed any light on this?

    What is meant by incorporated "many elements from Sil Lum"?

    Ever hear of this Chu Chong Man?
     
  2. ShortBridge

    ShortBridge Black Belt

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    I believe that Si Lum was a Shaolin system or ciriculam.
     
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  3. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    Chu Chong Man was one of the primary Weng Chun guys that trained alongside Tang Yik at the Dai Duk Lan. He was a bit older than Ip Man and was seen as one of the senior guys.

    Fung Siu Ching – Tung Jik – Chu Chong Man

    Chan Wah Kung – Dai Shan Shu – Chu Chong Man

    Supposedly Chu primarily shared with the others at Dai Duk Lan a form called "Fa Kuen" and one of the versions of the dummy form. The dummy coming down from Fung Siu Ching, and the Fa Kuen being a family Hung Kuen form coming down from Chan Wah Kung. That would be the "Siu Lum" element.

    Chu had moved to Hong Kong in his later years to be the main medical provider for the Flower Association there. Chu Chong Man’s Kung Fu was a combination of elements from the Hung Kuen system he had studied in his youth and the Weng Chun he studied from Tung Jik. One of his main students still teaching is Chan Wing Yu. Chu Chong Man’s system consisted of Fa Kuen, Ping Kuen, Mui Fa Pat Qwa, Jong Kuen, dummy and Pole. This system was a combination of various things he had picked up over the years.

    Andreas Hoffman's original story has been that the guys at Dai Duk Lan had all learned various parts of the "Jee Shim" system, but none had learned the whole thing. They came together at the Dai Duk Lan and shared their information in order to "rebuild" the system, which was then passed down to him and was what he was teaching in his European association. This is not true. They were indeed a group of friends that came together to train and share information. But they did not come up with one homogeneous system that all agreed upon, and they had not all learned from the same original source.

    There is no doubt that Ip Man and Chun Chong Man were friends. There are photos of them together. But just how much Ip Man learned from Chu is unclear and debatable. And be careful not to confuse Chu Chong Man with Chu Chong. Chu Chong was an elder in the Pao Fao Lien Wing Chun system that lived and was active well into his 90's. There is a video from a Chinese variety show featuring him that has floated around on the internet for many years now.
     
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  4. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    Thanks short bridge and kpm.

    Isn't this like a solo form? I think there is a guy up near Washington DC that teaches it...

    Never heard of most of these... But any ideas on what Mui Fa Pat Qwa could be?
    Jong kuen sounds like it could be just doing the dummy form in the air(?)
     
  5. jlq

    jlq Green Belt

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    According to Chu Chung Man himself, as told by the Chan family in HK today:

    Chu Chung Man's first Sifu was Wong Jit Shing, who had learnt from his grandfather, who in turn was a student of Chi Sim himself. From this lineage he learned the "Fa Kuen system", which consisted of three forms: Peng Kuen, Fut Kuen and Mui Fa Baat Gwa. This "system" had supposedly been created by Chi Sim for Wong's grandfather because he was too old to learn another external styles when Chi Sim taught him. So this is a lineage which is unrelated to the Red Boat transmission.
    Chu's second Sifu was Dong Ji, whose lineage is:

    Chi Sim - Dao Wah Bou - San Gam - Dong Ji. Over the course of this transmission the original Siulam techniques of Chi Sim had been continuously modified and ultimately resulted in the creation of the "Chong Kuen" and 3 different wooden dummy sets (Heaven, Man, Earth versions). Chu Chung Man had learnt the 6.5 pole from someone called Gam Cheung, who in turn had gotten this from his uncle, Gam Ming, a student of Dao Wah Bou.

    There is no mention of other teachers of Chu, at least it seems it he didn't mention any to his successor, Chan Wing Yue, it seems.

    Did he teach YM anything, is he YM's secret teacher, the true "Leung Bik"... In my opinion, having looked into this quite a bit myself, I'd say most definitely not.
     
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  6. jlq

    jlq Green Belt

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    Fa Kuen is a very common name, and many styles have a Fa Kuen form, some styles even several of them, in their curriculum. So even though the name is the same, the forms of the different schools are totally different.
     
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  7. wckf92

    wckf92 Master Black Belt

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    Thanks jlq!

    Understood on the fa kuen... Any idea what the Mui fa thing? In my reading on forums I think it is currently understood as a sort of circular stepping pattern?
     
  8. jlq

    jlq Green Belt

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    The term Mui Fa is again, a very common one and used to describe a lot of different things in Chinese martial arts. There is even an entire style called "Mui Fa Kuen" (one ot the essential training methods of this style is training on the so called "Mui Fa Chong" or "Plum flower posts"). Rather interestingly, there are many styles which go by that name, but are something entirely different. The reason is that "Mui Fa Kuen" was very popular and well known, so many others wanted to "cash in" on the fame and reputation of the style and called what they were doing "Mui Fa Kuen" as well...
     
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  9. jlq

    jlq Green Belt

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    So there is no specific "Mui Fa stepping pattern". Usually it refers just to stepping on poles in a "Plum Flower pattern".
     
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  10. KPM

    KPM Senior Master

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    No. The Jong Kuen or Chong Kuen form is said to have taken techniques and concepts from the dummy form and then elaborated it with a lot more footwork. Obviously footwork is limited when just moving around the dummy! So Jong Kuen was "giving the dummy form legs."

    And just to clarify in case it wasn't clear....."Siu Lum" and "Shao Lin" are the same thing. First is cantonese and second mandarin. First is southern and second is northern. So when someone calls a system "Siu Lum" they mean southern Shaolin. Most of the Hung Kuen village systems claimed connection or descent from the Siu Lum/Shaolin.
     
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  11. VPT

    VPT Green Belt

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    Fa Kuen = Faa Kuen/ Faa Kyun (in standard romanizations) / Hua Quan (Mandarin Pinyin)/ 花拳/ Flower Fist. Some Gulao Wing Chun lineages have a form named like that.

    BTW, I've learnt before some Nothern Chinese boxing called Meihuazhuangquan, "Plum Flower Poles Boxing". AFAIK, they have some plum flower pattern inspired footwork drills. Never saw any of those, though.
     
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  12. VPT

    VPT Green Belt

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    Oh, I'm also such a grammar Nazi that "Siu Lum" hurts my eyes every time I see it since "Lam" is used in all standardized regular romanizations I know...
     
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