Suicide bombers. Split from Obama/armed forces thread

[Flying Crane]

Plus, the way he was water boarded isnt the same thing as we are doing now.

please explaine the differences, and how you know they are different.

Water boarding as we do it produces only the FEAR of drowning, there is no water entering the lungs, therefore no "lasting harm or injury" therefore not legally torture.

well, just a week or two ago, 60 Minutes ran a story about a German national who was picked up as a terrorist suspect and sent to Guantanamo Bay for a few years. Eventually, he was released to Germany, where he now lives as a free man. He was never formally charged with anything. He had converted to Islam, and was in the wrong place at the wrong time shortly after 9/11.

This guy, (sorry, I can't remember his name) described the waterboarding done to him. His head was held in a bucket of water, while he was kicked in the stomach to force him to exhale and cough and inhale water.

This was among other things done to him, all the while being monitored by doctors to make sure he wasn't about to die and he could continue to be tortured.

The thing with torture is that you don't necessarily want lasting injury. You don't want to risk killing the victim, 'cause then you can't continue torturing him. You just want to put him into agony and extreme fear.

If you torture someone badly enough, they will tell you anything, whether it's true or not. If they think you want to hear it, if it will stop the torture, they will say it.

For that matter, we water board our military officers as part of their training to resist the technique. If it was that bad, we wouldnt do that.

well, I don't know about that, but I suppose I could ask my brother who served in the US Army JAG Corps, reaching the rank of Captain. Maybe he was waterboarded. I dunno. I'll let you know, the next time I talk to him.

At any rate, if they do this, I suspect it is not to the same level as would be done in a real interrogation. When you are in a training situation, you feel the agony of the technique, but you KNOW that it is training, and you TRUST that no real harm will come to you.

When you are being interrogated for real, there is no TRUST in your ultimate safety, and you believe you will actually be drowned in a bucket of water. You know that you are not safe with the people doing the interrogation. You believe that they do not care for your life, and they may just decide to drown you and be done. It's a much more volatile situation.

 

[elder999]

well, just a week or two ago, 60 Minutes ran a story about a German national who was picked up as a terrorist suspect and sent to Guantanamo Bay for a few years. Eventually, he was released to Germany, where he now lives as a free man. He was never formally charged with anything. He had converted to Islam, and was in the wrong place at the wrong time shortly after 9/11.

,

Would that be Murat Kuranz?

 

[Flying Crane]

Would that be Murat Kuranz?

yup, that's the guy. thanks!

 

[Big Don]

What is it exactly that makes Kuranz so much more believable than the government?
Is it, at least partly, that his worldview is more like yours?
I mean, CBS would never air anything false would they? Oh, yeah, they did, didn't they...

 

[Flying Crane]

well, I don't know about that, but I suppose I could ask my brother who served in the US Army JAG Corps, reaching the rank of Captain. Maybe he was waterboarded. I dunno. I'll let you know, the next time I talk to him.

Well, I just got an email back from my brother. He has never experienced waterboarding, said he isn't even quite sure how it's done. He prosecuted some Afghan detainee abuse cases, but they did not include waterboarding.

The closest thing he experienced in the course of standard Army Officer training was exposure to CS gas, which was designed to give them confidence in their chemical masks.

 

[Flying Crane]

What is it exactly that makes Kuranz so much more believable than the government?
Is it, at least partly, that his worldview is more like yours?
I mean, CBS would never air anything false would they? Oh, yeah, they did, didn't they...

Or is the Government's worldview simply more like yours?

 

[Flying Crane]

What is it exactly that makes Kuranz so much more believable than the government?
Is it, at least partly, that his worldview is more like yours?
I mean, CBS would never air anything false would they? Oh, yeah, they did, didn't they...

I suppose we can all just point fingers at each other and shout "LIAR!" as loudly as we can. Good discussion and debating technique there...

 

[Empty Hands]

At any rate, if they do this, I suspect it is not to the same level as would be done in a real interrogation.

They do indeed, although it is part of special forces training IIRC, not general training. As part of this training, the soldiers are "captured" by the "enemy" and held like prisoners, interrogated, mistreated, etc. All of this is only to give them experience with it to help them resist and know what to expect, not to actually break them or test their limits.

I believe the type of waterboarding done is where a cloth is placed over the mouth and nose, and water poured on the cloth. Certainly not what you describe. Your points about trust and knowledge are very relevant too.

 

[Empty Hands]

What is it exactly that makes Kuranz so much more believable than the government?

Well, I have no idea if Kuranz is a liar. I know the government is though. We've gone from "we don't torture" to "OK, we tortured these three guys, but it wasn't that bad, honest!". Thus, the government's actions give credence to Kuranz' story.

Also, Kuranz is not the only one making believable accusations of torture. Maher Arar, among others, have also made such claims. Although Arar was handed off to the Syrians to have them do our dirty work for us.

 

[Big Don]

The closest thing he experienced in the course of standard Army Officer training was exposure to CS gas, which was designed to give them confidence in their chemical masks.

OMG. I remember that day. That crap really cleans out your sinuses. If it weren't so damn painful and scary, it would sell like hotcakes.

 

[Big Don]

CS training is common for all soldiers and marines, I don't know if the AF and Navy do it, but , what Empty is thinking of is SERE school, at least that is what it sounds like.
SERE is an acronym for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, from those I know who have been through it, it doesn't sound like fun.

 

[Flying Crane]

OMG. I remember that day. That crap really cleans out your sinuses. If it weren't so damn painful and scary, it would sell like hotcakes.

yeah, years ago I remember seeing a documentary on Marine training on TV, and they showed this. It looked pretty miserable. Not something I'd do for fun on the weekend.

 

[Big Don]

yeah, years ago I remember seeing a documentary on Marine training on TV, and they showed this. It looked pretty miserable. Not something I'd do for fun on the weekend.

On the upside, you've never breathed so clear as you do for a while after every micron of snot leaves your body in a 3 min period.

 

[Empty Hands]

SERE is an acronym for Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, from those I know who have been through it, it doesn't sound like fun.

Yes, that's the one.

 

[Twin Fist]

please explaine the differences, and how you know they are different.

The difference being, McCain had water poured down his throat. Today, American interigators cover the mouth with cellophane before pouring the water. No water enters the lungs.

well, just a week or two ago, 60 Minutes ran a story about a German national This guy, (sorry, I can't remember his name) described the waterboarding done to him. His head was held in a bucket of water, while he was kicked in the stomach to force him to exhale and cough and inhale water.

He is suing if i recall correctly, so, grain of salt.....He is also a muslim, with motivation to make the US look bad.BIG grain of salt

well, I don't know about that, but I suppose I could ask my brother who served in the US Army JAG Corps, reaching the rank of Captain. Maybe he was waterboarded. I dunno. I'll let you know, the next time I talk to him.

Jag lawyers dont go through SAR school. Or BUDS training.

Flying Crane,
I get what you are saying, and it does have merit. Those techniques may well produce some false information. But we know for a fact that it produces true information as well. KSM proved that.

And I dont think Don was calling anyone BUT CBS a liar, and in that case, he is correct.

 

[Flying Crane]

The difference being, McCain had water poured down his throat. Today, American interigators cover the mouth with cellophane before pouring the water. No water enters the lungs.

again, that's not what Kuranz describes.

He is suing if i recall correctly, so, grain of salt.....He is also a muslim, with motivation to make the US look bad.BIG grain of salt

Ah, so being a Muslim is automatic reason to suspect what he says. Again, you and I have a big difference in worldview.

He may have a legitimate lawsuit. Altho I doubt the current regime would allow it to be acknowledged.

Jag lawyers dont go through SAR school. Or BUDS training.

True, but you simply stated that military officers go thru this as part of training. My brother was a military officer. He did not go thru it.

As a prosecutor with the US Army, a specialist in military law, I thought he might have some knowledge on the subject. He did not. That is his experience, which I have passed on here as I felt it was relevant to the discussion.

 

[elder999]

The difference being, McCain had water poured down his throat. Today, American interigators cover the mouth with cellophane before pouring the water. No water enters the lungs.
.

Actually, I think you mean cloth, rather than cellophane-which would pretty much do the job of asphyxiation by itself, and no need to pour water. The subject is inclined with the head down, so that the lungs are higher than the mouth, and their head or mouth is encased in cloth, which has water poured on it-inducing the feeling of drowning and asphyxiation without introducing water into the lungs....while some CIA men have said that the mouth is wrapped in cellophane and water is dripped into the nose, I don't think this technique is employed much, out of expedience more than anything else.

....of course, it could kill them either way, but hey-if the governement says it's not torture, I guess that should be good enough for me.