Sucessful use of 3-sectional staff in full-contact sparring

Discussion in 'General Weapons Discussion' started by Tony Dismukes, Jun 20, 2017.

  1. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

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    For those who might be skeptical of this, skip to around the 2m20sec mark...

     
  2. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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  3. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Sure, Like I said, there are limits. As it should be. If they start sending all their training partners to the ER or the morgue with split skulls, well that isn't a sustainable training plan.

    The fact that they are not sending people to the ER or the morgue with split skulls tells me there are limits.

    As there should be.
     
  4. Jin Gang

    Jin Gang Green Belt

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    My point was exactly that you need to train to deliver stopping power with your weapon in every strike, in the first strike. You can't do that against live people. You do it on bags or targets or trees. You practice combinations not because you necessarily expect to deliver five hits in a row on somebody charging you, but so that you know how to handle the weapon like it's a part of your body, recover from your first strike and deliver more if the opportunity presents itself. This is especially necessary for jointed/flexible weapon.

    I get what the utility of dog brothers-style training is for fighting, I just think it doesn't/can't show us the real, full effect of most weapons on people. I'm not saying it is pointless to do it, but it's only one component of weapon training, especially weapons more complex than a stick. So I don't think these videos show us a lot regarding how effective or ineffective a three-section staff could be.
     
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  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I just wanted to clarify my position here...which is a weird thought actually because I don't mean to be taking a position, this shouldn't, in my mind, be an argument...but anyway, to clarify what I mean, I don't intend my comments in any way to be derogatory to what the dog brothers are doing. It's not my cup of tea, I'm not interested in taking that kind of beating and I don't feel that my training suffers for it in any way that matters. But at any rate, I was simply pointing out that a real battle with the weapon could look very different if the combatants were not wearing protective gear, and if the weapon were made from a denser wood. But then, someone would be maimed or killed.

    I felt it was, in the context of the discussion, a reasonable observation. Nothing more, nothing less.
     
  6. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    The hanger used by the bad guy in the tent, when he greets Marion.
     
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  7. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    He seems to be getting away with a lot in the grappling. I assume he is a lot better than the guys he is fighting there.
     
  8. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Oh damn, you are right. Did he actually use it as a weapon or restraint tool?
     
  9. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    No, but it was a very effective hanger. :D
     
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  10. Blindside

    Blindside Senior Master

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    I am sure that he is, there are simply not many of his level of grapplers in DBs which isn't really surprising.
     
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  11. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Hey Tony, I spar regularly with fencing masks, very lite gloves, elbow and knee pads and have been doing so for thirty years or so. The difference is a lot of the charging in and going to grappling just won't happen with a heavy hard wood stick or a blade. With the heavy hard wood stick if you hit some thing it is probably getting broken. I can easily demonstrate this by showing you that when hitting a wrist or even a thigh with a rattan stick you probably can still continue to function. If I hit your wrist with a hardwood stick it is broken and will no longer function and similarly for a knee. Heck I guarantee that you can take a thigh shot with a rattan stick while you wouldn't even consider taking one with a hard wood stick. There are limits to what the body can take. Rattan and the cheaper wax wood which most people have are great for training as they tolerate people's mistakes. Hard wood usually doesn't. Rattan is for training, hard wood and blade for combat. We should never confuse the too!
     
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  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah, a stick or a club or a staff wasn't a friendlier or less deadly weapon just because it isn't sharp. If it was intended for combat then it was made from a dense and tough wood and was meant to break and smash and mangle bones, and kill. For most people, I would bet on a staff guy to win over a sword guy, all other things being equal. A sword guy needs to have clearly superior skill to win that encounter.
     
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  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    See I would have thought if there was ever going to be a conceptual arms race. It would be dog brothers.

    I also would have thought jumping guard in a weapons fight would be suicide.
     
  14. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Do you think the method essentially changes though?

    If you break my arm with a stick. I think I would try to rush anyway.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. Knowing your arm isn't likely to get broken allows for bolder moves, though.
     
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  16. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    You might and would probably die.
    Hard to function well with a non-functioning arm/hand but not impossible you would still have a small chance. You might also freeze in pain and the beat down begins. However it is bad, particularly since you are then more than likely disarmed, one armed facing an individual with a hard wood stick. Not good odds. Yet, closing might also be the best option. Provided you could not run! There are no absolutes!

    The other thing is how many times in full contact sparring with rattan has someone been hit in the leg/knee and just walked through it. Walked through a head shot. Walked through a wrist/arm strike. With a hard wood stick your probably going down or your broken. Now you can't close. Your just stuck and getting bludgeoned.

    I watched a rattan fight awhile back where the guy was willing to just roof block and run in and try to grapple. The rattan stick was not really part of his attack plan. He did close and grappling began. However, he took a shot to his arm and head on the way in. With a hard wood stick he would have been toast with a bashed in head. With a blade he had a cut arm and his head was cut deep. What works with rattan doesn't always work with hard wood sticks or blades.

    I personally love sparring full contact with rattan and fencing masks. It is fun, some times painful. It is however just a training tool and not to be taken as real combat!
     
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  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. See I was thinking the same sort of concept with head kicks and sparring. Normally I am not trying to kick a guys head off and so instead of nailing them and watching them drop. They quite often will be able to counter. And quite often one or the other guy will say. "Yeah but you would have been dropped."

    Now you have either Dodged the shot or you haven't and it will either drop you or you won't.

    You don't really have to practice getting knocked out in the correct way. You should practice recovering if you haven't been knocked out.

    Same you don't really need to practice what to do if you just knocked a guy out you should practice what to do if you haven't and he is recovering.

    So I think the stick fighting where these injuries don't happen still teach a useful fighting mechanic
     
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  18. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Absolutely Drop Bear! Provided people understand the limitations of sparring with rattan which is a training tool and not a combat tool.
     
  19. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Yeah. That I thought would be a factor.
     
  20. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    And so the theory there would be if I can drop a guy with rattan. I am going to be a real issue with a steel bar.
     
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