Style

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Shin71, Sep 3, 2010.

  1. Shin71

    Shin71 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Falcon, Colorado
    How do you tell if someone has style when it comes to the martial arts, specifically ninjutsu (or ninny-jutsu as my Genbukan friend calls it)?

    First I think if you break away from one of the X-kans for whatever reason you dont call your "new" art ninjutsu or even "formally known as."

    If you got legit creds you probably claim it without advertising it, usually only if asked about it.

    Most important of all you dont make up a bunch of stuff or organize all your training into something that works for you (or doesn't) and then call it ninjutsu, post 50 things in the ninjutsu boards and whine when you get called out on it. If you got skills then that will show itself, if they are something you want to pass on then that is something else and takes different skill sets.

    Just because someone is in the Infantry/Airborn/Air Assault/Rangers/SF or other is a level 4 Combatives instructor, knows how to use camo, used lots of weapons, can patrol and use tactics doesn't mean they can suddenly say "Hey, that is kind of historical ninja like, I think I will open the Army-Ninjutsu school of Combatives today" (unless I can get rich quick off of it.... anyway)

    To say otherwise is foolish. Be proud of your self and if you have a system that works and you can translate those skills into something that others can learn and use in the way you are telling them they are meant then call it what it is; dont use ryu, do, po, jutsu unless you are really teaching a core system with some variation and then note that.....

    How does everyone else feel about this? I am asking because I stumbled across something by some Zapata guy and I have never seen that many orange dots in a rep?
     
  2. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,050
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Er, what? Didn't really follow much of that, to be honest....
     
  3. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Queens, NY. Fort Lauderdale, FL
    LOL Chris. I read that post last night before I went to bed and thought I was just tired. After sleep, coffee, workout and shower it still makes no sense.

    I swear, the internet is a written medium for the most part yet still people can't put together coherent, grammatically correct sentences.
     
  4. Cryozombie

    Cryozombie Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2003
    Messages:
    9,998
    Likes Received:
    206
    Trophy Points:
    173
    What you say? Main screen turn on!
     
  5. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Queens, NY. Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Wait? What am you sazy?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. Shin71

    Shin71 Yellow Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2010
    Messages:
    54
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Location:
    Falcon, Colorado
    Let me clarify here, I was on a flight line, it was around 0300, I was typing using a Blackberry so I was tired and rushed, I had just read some stuff by this Zapata guy and it didn't help that I was polling other SF guys about martial arts in general - most of whom think that anything not MMA is useless.

    I was trying to comment on how many people think that by calling their system a form of Ninjutsu it suddenly makes it ...better or "legitimate?" And they catch hell for it regardless of their training background - sometimes with little or no taijutsu/ninjutsu at all.

    I was trying to compare that to the people out there who were with a legitimate x-kan for years (or even decades) that have, for whatever reason, decided to go in a new direction and still teach but do not title their teachings "ninjutsu" in order to make it stand out.
     
  7. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Queens, NY. Fort Lauderdale, FL
    Don't post threads from a Blackberry. For all our sakes and the sake of making a clear point use a computer, reread, edit then post.

    People should be called out for pulling a bait and switch, no matter what. If I opened a ballet school and my only knowledge of the subject was what I've gleaned from my sister over the years then I would be a fraud with no credentials claiming to teach ballet. Same with any martial art, if you can not show lineage to one of the true systems then it's a bait and switch.

    It's a compeltely different situation from someone who learns a whole system then breaks away. Like the Alvin Aily school of dance where the peopel here spent many years learning the classical forms and even perform traditional pieces but also perform modern dance. It's a ligitamate school, they have all the credentials, they can perform all the stuff as good and even better than other ballet schools, but it's not because their focus is on American forms.

    There is a difference between knowing then changing something that have worked with for years to suit your own value judgments as opposed to making something up off the top of your head.
     
  8. Steve

    Steve Mostly Harmless

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2008
    Messages:
    15,658
    Likes Received:
    2,774
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Covington, WA
    My impression is that claiming ninjutsu is actually detrimental to your reputation, and what quality schools that do exist are continuously fighting the poor impression that subpar schools have given the general martial arts community. I'm not involved in ninjutsu directly, but through these boards and others, that's been the gist of what I've seen.

    If I were inventing my style and looking for instant "cred", I'd claim MMA or some kind of RBSD over any false association with ninjutsu.
     
  9. Indagator

    Indagator Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Lol that reminds me of the time I ended up watching a pirated version of Ip Man 2, where the subtitles gave the direct literal English translation of the Chinese speech.
    Very hard, in places, to decipher what was being said lol.
     
  10. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,050
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Okay, this is still more than a little convaluted to my mind, but I'll try to go through as much of it as I can to see if we can get to something close to what you are trying to get at. Let's see how we go, then, shall we?

     
  11. BADASSBUDO

    BADASSBUDO White Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Interesting,
    Could you list the "ninjutsu" techniques that you teach/study, that make your school more ninjutsu based that taijutsu/bujutsu based?
     
  12. Omar B

    Omar B Senior Master

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2007
    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    84
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Location:
    Queens, NY. Fort Lauderdale, FL
    You do realize that would be a list of hundreds of separate techniques? Maybe you meant to ask him to explain the various disciplines rather than enumerate each individual unit?
     
  13. BADASSBUDO

    BADASSBUDO White Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Sure I can appreciate that. It's not really what I was asking.

    Chris is saying that his schools teach more ninjutsu elements than the bujinkan. I am truly interested in this because I have many tiomes thought that I do not see ANY ninjutsu truly taught in any of the Xkans or splinter groups apart from a spattering here and there...

    Since Wayne Roy's original ninjutsu training comes from Hatsumi, and Hatsumi classes his ninjutsu to be made up of about 18 skillsets, perhaps Chris could break down his training time with % beside each skillset (in particular those highlighted bold which I would consider more Ninjutsu based than others.

    Taijutsu (striking & grappling)
    Kenjutsu (sword )
    Bōjutsu (hanbo and staff)
    Sōjutsu (spear techniques)
    Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)
    Hensōjutsu (disguise and impersonation)
    Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)
    Shurikenjutsu (shurikan and shinken)
    Bajutsu (horsemanship)
    Sui-ren (water training)
    Bōryaku (tactics)
    Naginatajutsu (naginata)
    Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama)
    Chōhō (espionage)
    Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)

    Tenmon (meteorology)
    Chi-mon (geography)
    Seishinteki kyōyō (spiritual pursuit)

    I would then be interested to learn how much time Wayne Roy spent in the 2 years total training he had in Japan that he spent learning those skillsets in Japan.

    Thanks in advance, Chris.
    It would be great getting to have that kind of understand into your system.
    One of the guys at our dojo was saying he may even pop into your dojo on the way to training to say hello.
     
  14. Bruno@MT

    Bruno@MT Senior Master

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2009
    Messages:
    3,399
    Likes Received:
    73
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Rather than list the individual techniques, an explanation is perhaps in order.
    The Bujinkan (for example) consists of the nine schools. Some of which are ninjutsu, and some of which are not. Forget about techniques for the moment, since techniques are an expression of the concepts that underpin the art. Even though most systems have e.g. wristlocks, they are done for different reasons of with different intention.

    Anyway, what Chris is saying is that of the nine schools, they focus only on the ninjutsu (and ninjutsu related) ones, and not on the 'samurai' ones. As a result, they focus more on the ninjutsu aspect than the Bujinkan, which has renamed their system from Bujinkan Ninpo Taijutsu to Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
     
  15. BADASSBUDO

    BADASSBUDO White Belt

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    4
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Well, not really. if school a teaches ichimonji no kamae from Togakure ryu and school b teaches it from Gyakko Ryu that IMO does not make it more ninjutsu based than the other due to a hand position.

    To me, it is the elements of ninjutsu such as stealth, evasion, tactics, esacape, etc that which really is what seperated "ninja" from a samurai.

    Even Tenshin Shōden Katori Shintō-ryū, a Koryu system with a recognized and verified ninjutsu sylabus do not class the ninjutsu element as any more than intelligence gathering and analysis tactics.

    So if you are claiming to be more ninjutsu based than the school you learnt it from in the first place, just saying you "shift focus" is not enough. I'd like to see what exactly at its core you have shifted focus to.

    Looking at Chris's website:

    looks like a bujinkan class to me.
    Hence my interest in more detail.

    Not trying to start trouble.
    Just wanted some detailed clarification if it's not too much trouble.
     
  16. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,050
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Well, this is fun.

    BADASSBUDO, from your earlier posting you are a former member of our schools, so you have some idea of what we train in (or did 10 years ago). To clarify, Bruno is on the money there, I wasn't meaning that we have "more" Ninjutsu than the Bujinkan, just that the Bujinkan then has other non-Ninjutsu systems as well (might think of it as Ninjutsu Plus....), whereas we limited ourselves to the Ninjutsu-related systems as detailed above. And as Togakure Ryu is one of the ones we teach, and your list from Hatsumi Sensei is a list of the component teachings of Togakure Ryu, well, that would be a clue as to whether or not we teach them (both in traditional forms and modern, so you know). But just for fun, a student asked me recently this exact question on another forum via PM, here is my answer to that student:

    So anyway, I was looking at the 18 skills of ninjutsu...

    Seishinteki kyōyō (spiritual refinement)

    Seishin Teki Kyoyo is more an end result, rather than something specificly worked on. Part of the idea is that as you train the art you gain greater control over yourself (your emotions etc), as well as becoming more compassionate towards your fellow human beings as you become more and more aware of your own mortality (by being exposed to techniques that symbolically "kill" you, such as weaponry kata). We then also have various devices, such as the meditations that start each class (guided in specific ways for specific results, if you hadn't realised), as well as methods of personal development that you will be exposed to as you progress (certain other meditative methods, Therapy Trees, Timeline Therapy, and more).

    Taijutsu (unarmed combat)

    This is really the cornerstone of all Ninjutsu schools these days, rather than the weaponry that would have been more likely in ages past. As I'm sure your aware, that is a big part of every class, for us and all others.

    Kenjutsu (sword techniques)

    Again, very commonly covered. Our approach (due to my personal interest and study of the sword, as well as other reasons) lends us to be more "technical" than the Bujinkan, for instance. We cover this weapon 4 times a year (at least), and it is the "attacking" weapon for many other months.

    So you know, though, this is not Kenjutsu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXOVVn6prrI It is frankly embarrassing. So we won't be doing things like this.


    Bōjutsu (stick and staff techniques)

    Bojutsu is the fundamental weapon of the Kukishin traditions, and is taught in various forms, including Hanbo (covered every 3 months, or four times a year), Jo (which we are going through now), and Bo (there was a workshop a few months ago, and we will be covering it again early next year in Preston, however the room in the City is a little prohibitive, which is really the only reason we don't cover it as much these days.

    Sōjutsu (spear techniques)

    It's actually rare to find someone who knows what they are doing in Sojutsu, and rarer to have the essential equipment to do it properly. Fortunately, I have spent a number of years researching this weapon, have the complete scroll for Kukishinden Ryu Sojutsu, and a range of training spears. It's coming up at Preston when we do Kukishinden Ryu, which will be early 2012. There may be a workshop or two leading up to that, but more likely that will be for the next topic.

    We have in the past done workshops on Kama Yari, the sickle spear from Kumogakure Ryu, and that may make another appearance.


    Naginatajutsu (naginata techniques)

    This was the original primary weapon for Kukishin Ryu, but the current form only has a small section. It also includes Bisento (like a Naginata on steroids...), and will most likely make an appearance as a workshop at some point in the next year to year and a half or so.

    Kusarigamajutsu (kusarigama techniques)

    This and Kyoketsu Shoge are due to be taught (again at Preston, as we have the room there) when we go through Togakure Ryu in the second half of next year. I am currently looking at getting training equipment for us to go through this topic (it's a lot of fun, by the way). We have done these in the past as well.

    Shurikenjutsu (throwing weapons techniques)

    A big part of Togakure Ryu, and will be covered in more detail then. The last time we went through them was about a year ago.

    Kayakujutsu (pyrotechnics)

    The use of incendiary devices is not an overtly practical thing these days, as setting the room we are renting on fire isn't really encouraged.... that said, most of it is orally taught, and includes such things as how to best employ fire against old-style Japanese castles, how to light fires in the rain, and so forth, and isn't really taught anywhere (Hatsumi was asked about it once, and said "Why do you need to know that? Can't you get a lighter or some matches?"). If you really want, I can take you through some of the details as I have come across them.

    Hensōjutsu (disguise and impersonation)

    Again, this is taught through stories, and I've certainly gone through a number of those over the years. Add to that that amongst my background is training as an actor, and if you want more detail, I can certainly take you through it. For your information, though, there were traditionally seven groupings for disguise, based on the Japanese social structure at the time.

    Shinobi-iri (stealth and entering methods)

    Rarely taught in the Bujinkan, the Jinenkan seems to deal with it the most these days. We will be covering it as part of the traditional scroll teachings of Togakure Ryu, so you know.

    Bajutsu (horsemanship)

    Horseriding is another topic that we have gone out and done as a workshop before, realistically the modern version of it would be simply leraning to drive a car.... with that said, there are things we teach such Protective Driving skills, which come from Bodyguarding principles, and focus on not being a vicitm of road rage or carjacking.

    Sui-ren (water training)

    We have, in the past, gone through these skills, and they may be touched on again as part of the Togakure Ryu skills we go through. Shinden Fudo Ryu Jutaijutsu also teaches a range of principles for fighting in water as well (whereas the Togakure Ryu ones are more about silent swimming, silent entry and exit into water, and so on).

    Bōryaku (tactics)

    Tactics make up the basis of each and every technique, as they are realistically just symbolic representations of tactics themselves. You will probably hear me use these terms (strategies and tactics) fairly often....

    Chōhō (espionage)

    This ties into the Inton and Hensojutsu sections, and again is taught through oral stories and teachings. Not really a practical aspect, so almost never taught, but I enjoy the old stories, which is where it really comes from.

    Intonjutsu (escaping and concealment)

    Again, a part of Togakure Ryu's teachings, and will be dealt with then.

    Tenmon (meteorology)

    Well, I've actually put some of those teachings on another forum before.... not really taught, as there are modern scientific weather bureaus, daily and nightly weather reports, and so on, but if you want to know, I can take you through some aspects.

    Chi-mon (geography)

    Same as Tenmon, really. The equivalent would be knowing how to read a Melways, or how to find your way if you didn't have one. For this reason, I don't have a GPS, I don't like relying on technology, and prefer to keep my sense of direction sharp. But that's my approach.


    Now, as to why we class it as Ninjutsu, well, to me at least, Ninjutsu is a historically linked system to the appropriate groups in Japan, and the systems we teach were chosen as they demonstrate that link (Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu both passed through Momochi Sandayu, without getting to the Hattori clans, that's about as "ninja history" as you can get, Togakure Ryu, well, that's always been acknowledged as a Ninjutsu system, and the origins of the Kukishinden Ryu involve the actions of a Kishu Ninja [either a member of the Kishu Ryu, or a Ninja from Kishu Han] according to Hatsumi Sensei, as well as Ishitani Sensei being said to have an ancestor in the Kami Hattori clan of Hanzo Hattori. To be frank, that is the most tenuous of the links, but it's still there, and provides most of the weaponry training). We also include the Ten Chi Jin Ryaku no Maki (Takamatsu version), which is said to be Takamatsu's take on what he felt was most important in Ninpo. We don't include the Shinden Fudo Ryu or the Takagi Yoshin Ryu, as these we class as "samurai" systems, and therefore not in keeping with our approach.

    Obviously all of these systems are included in the Bujinkan's make-up, my point was not that we had "more", just that we focused only on these aspects.

    Hope that helped. Oh, and if yourself, or your dojo-mate wanted to drop in to say hi, obviously they would be most welcome. We're focusing on Gyokko Ryu at the moment, so you know. Just make sure to introduce yourselves, be good to meet some of you (and see if I remember you.... or vice versa!).
     
  17. Indagator

    Indagator Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2010
    Messages:
    244
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    To be fair, my training is encompassed within the Bujinkan, and we focus heavily on stealth - including training in public places (at night of course) without being observed or detected.
    So some Bujinkan practitioners do incorporate the shinobi-iri that you refer to.
    Also, as I was taught, stealth involves detection of other's intent towards you, interpreting their own stealth and defending against it.
     
  18. Yaiba

    Yaiba White Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Melbourne
    When I was part of Wayne Roy's group, we did mostly
    a) some stretching,

    b) followed by some rolling (which sometimes included throwing a soft padded training tanto or hanbo in front of us then rolling to pick it up).

    c) single man kata which we were all given a print-out (called scrolls) of the kata we should know by a certain rank...like by 9th kyu just taking a 45 degree and blocking etc

    d)working the kata with a partner but wearing a mouth guard, mitts and groin guard, even though we were barely touching eachother

    e)then there would be a sit-down time with a whiteboard were we discussed "concepts" There was a time when Wayne Roy came down for a seminar and he discussed the associations of being "lucky in love" or "lucky in business" with "lucky in combat"

    f)then Richard cootes would either show some hojo but using an obi, or we would massage eachother, or we would work sakki by one person standing there while the other guy stood behind us and did a very slow punch to the back. The person with the back to the other would have to try and "feel the intent" and turn around.

    In the year that I was there, I don't recall working anything else.

    Earlier you said:

    To me that doesn't make sense.

    Your school teaches, as you claim, the Tenchinjin and focus on Koto Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Togakure Ryu, with Kukishinden Ryu (its a shame you dropped SDFR... works so well with Koto, but anyway)

    But firstly, the Tenchinjin is the core for the bujinkan, and most schools use this as the standard for what a student should know by shodan. If you are also using the tenchinjin, then there is really very little difference between the two.

    Who did Wayne Roy learn his Togakure Ryu techniques from? I remember reading somewhere that he spent most of his training with Nagato-sensei
     
  19. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,050
    Likes Received:
    949
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Hi Yaiba,

    As I've said many times, the instructor is far more important than things like the system (and I include my instructors and myself in that.... some will gel with us, others won't), so please realise that if there are persons such as yourself, BADASSBUDO, and others who didn't find something that was for them with us, that's really fine with me. I'm happy that you've found somewhere that works for you. That said, I wouldn't mind clarifying a few things (and answering your questions to the point that I am able).

     
  20. Yaiba

    Yaiba White Belt

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2010
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Location:
    Melbourne
    Chris, just to clarify,
    I wasn't putting down this part of the training...I was just pointing out that it wasn't much different to other bujinkan classes I have attended.

    That makes more sense
     

Share This Page