Strength or speed

[BlackCatBonz]

One of the 5th dans in my system is a former NFL linebacker - big guy. His teacher, a short tai chi man, can mop the floor with him, no exceptions. There isn't even a question of strength - intenal arts specialize in redirecting power and using the strength of one's enemy against them.

this was the point i was trying to make in one of my earlier posts. speed and strength mean zero. knowledge of timing and distance are the factors that will determine the better fighter. most people get so caught up in speed and strength they miss the whole purpose for training, STRATEGY. this is where you learn about timing and distance and when and where you hit.....not how fast and how hard you hit. even a great military power like the US against a smaller but still deadly force, will use the concepts of timing, distance, when and where, as opposed to relying solely on their brute force.
martial arts is all about intelligent fighting, not strong like bull and smart like dumptruck.

shawn

 

[The Kai]

Strategy and tactics are fine, but you need some speed and strenght at the point of application. Watch Archie Moore on the old boxing tapes if you ever get a chance

 

[sasquatchnaruto]

i think it goes

technique>speed>strength

even thought im a pretty strong guy

 

[Zujitsuka]

One's speed is dependent on one's strength.

There are different types of strength (limit, absolute, starting, expolsiveness, aerobic strength, linear strenght endurance, and non-linear strength endurance ).

As it applies to martial arts, the stronger I get, the faster I get. Particularly since I've been focusing on starting strength and explosive strength.

A lot of martial artists would not dare touch weights because they fear that weight training will make them slow. I used to believe that, but I've learned that you'll only become slow if you train like a bodybuilder.

Look into articles written by Coach Davies, Coach Staley, Istvan Javorek, or Pavel Tsatsouline to learn more on this.

Peace and health,

 

[Raewyn]

I would say techique, than speed, than strength. For me technique is most important as if I dont get it right than speed and strength dont count!

 

[Makalakumu]

F=MA

Mass is strength.
Accelleration is speed.

If you spar people of other body types, you will find that each of these are directly proportional and therefore equal. Therefore a person who trains both will be able to vastly increase the force of their technique.

This is, of course, a striking perspective. I have only been training in jujutsu for three years. Perhaps someone can give a grappling perspective.

upnorthkyosa

 

[KenpoNoChikara]

Speed is very importent, but don't forget strength and power. They are both absolutely vital, but I think many MA's forget just how importent phisical strength can be as well.

 

[bignick]

alright...just from a physics standpoint, acceleration is the rate at which velocity(speed) is changing...but if my punch is coming at 30 miles an hour...and it's not changing...the acceleration is 0...so the force deliverd by my punch is F=M*0...which equals zero force...there is still momentum, P.

i believe momentum, p is
p = .5mv
or one half times the mass and velocity...

anyways...back to force...even if the speed isn't changing...if you hit me in the head and the speed of your hand doesn't change....my head was sitting still so as your momentum is transferred, my head accelerates and it also has mass...therefore there is a force(it is around us and binds the galaxy together)....as you can see...just looking at equation for force...you need size(mass) and acceleration(what we'll call speed)...if your missing one...the force is 0..

so if my hand and arm weighs 5 kg...and is accelerationg at 10 m/s^2...

F = 5 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

the same goes for if my hand and arm weigh 10 kg and my hand accelerates at 5 m/s^2

F = 10 kg * 5 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

you need both...and both are equally important...but you have to use whatever works for you the best....if you're a big slow guy...don't necessarily train to focus on speed...because you'll likely never be as fast as a skinny little quick guy...and he'll likely never have the same amount of mass as you do....but both can deliver the same amount of force if you know how to use what you've got...

 

[bignick]

by the way..i refrained from voting because with only one...you've got nothing

 

[An Eternal Student]

Both are equally important in my opinion.Thing is, speed with the correct use of weight behind it, can do tremendous damage.Even if the person is only about 8 stone in weight, thats still going to do a lot of damage if its done high speed.I think the problem is, most peoples speed training is focused on competition style, so they stop at surface contact.This means that their moves are light flicky ones.Speed training for self-defense is complete different, when you punch or kick you try to focus your whole weight into it.
The style of Karate I do, Wado-Ryo, creates speed through a sort of whip-lash action.When you punch with one hand, the other hand moves back at the same time as your fist moves forward.Most of the power comes from the hips as you slingshot your fist in to their face.The trick is to always aim about 6 inches behind your actual target.If I want to punch a guy in the nose,I should punch like Im trying to go straight through his head and hit a target on the back of it.A high speed attack like that, which doesnt stop at the surface, can do a hell of a lot of damage.

 

[Makalakumu]

alright...just from a physics standpoint, acceleration is the rate at which velocity(speed) is changing...but if my punch is coming at 30 miles an hour...and it's not changing...the acceleration is 0...so the force deliverd by my punch is F=M*0...which equals zero force...there is still momentum, P.

i believe momentum, p is
p = .5mv
or one half times the mass and velocity...

anyways...back to force...even if the speed isn't changing...if you hit me in the head and the speed of your hand doesn't change....my head was sitting still so as your momentum is transferred, my head accelerates and it also has mass...therefore there is a force(it is around us and binds the galaxy together)....as you can see...just looking at equation for force...you need size(mass) and acceleration(what we'll call speed)...if your missing one...the force is 0..

so if my hand and arm weighs 5 kg...and is accelerationg at 10 m/s^2...

F = 5 kg * 10 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

the same goes for if my hand and arm weigh 10 kg and my hand accelerates at 5 m/s^2

F = 10 kg * 5 m/s^2 = 50 kg*m/s^2 or 50 Newtons

you need both...and both are equally important...but you have to use whatever works for you the best....if you're a big slow guy...don't necessarily train to focus on speed...because you'll likely never be as fast as a skinny little quick guy...and he'll likely never have the same amount of mass as you do....but both can deliver the same amount of force if you know how to use what you've got...

Good post.

I would say that a punch or a kick IS accelerating though. A simple calucation can demonstration this.

[(Vo - Vi) / t] = a

Moving from stillness to motion, means that Vi = 0 m/s. Therefore Vo will be a positive number when a punch or a kick strikes your head. Speed comes into the equation by measuring the time it takes to move from stillness to impact. This acceleration generates the force behind the blow.

Momentum P = mv only talks about an interaction between mass and velocity. Momentum is conserved in a punch or a kick when the target's mass reaches a calculated velocity. Nothing is actually said about force.

MiVi = MoVo

Therefore

MiVi / Mo = Vo

See what I mean?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Patrick Skerry]

I think Bruce Lee was noted for both speed and power, but everyone commented on his speed. He was quick as a cat. So I think speed is more important.

 

[The Kai]

guru william de thouars has said that speed is >>REMOVED<<, timing is of the essence.
i think most any master of the arts that is up there in years would tell you the same thing.

shawn

Looking through the archives last night a found the tpae with the quote from Guru de Thouars, while it is true he calls speed bull***, timing is everything. The complication comes when he defines timing as "speed and slowness working together"." Watching the tape at the point where he discounts speed, you will notice that he moves pretty fast to Block/evade a punch when he demo's.

Todd

 

[bluemtn]

Both are vital. As a beginner, you start out slow, and as you progress, you may get faster, but should get stronger techniques before you get faster.

 

[shesulsa]

Did not vote, because both are important.

 

[Suntail]

I'm with Zujitsuka on this one. Isn't speed a resultant of strength? The stronger I get, the faster I am. The faster I am, the more power I generate.

In physics, the acceleration is from when you make contact to when contact stops. Also, in pure physics, speed is more important. A force applied over a distance divided by time is equal to power. So fd/t. Less time is more power. But then where does the speed come from?

Maybe everyone just has different ideas of strength?

-Talon

 

[Flatlander]

Actually, from the perspective of physics, I would posit that momentum (m*V) would, in fact, be a more valuable context from which to approach the problem.

 

[Makalakumu]

Actually, from the perspective of physics, I would posit that momentum (m*V) would, in fact, be a more valuable context from which to approach the problem.

Again, I would have to disagree. Force needs to be present in order to do work, though and I think we would all agree, fighting is work... Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass.

Your intuition is correct in linking the mass and velocity aspects of this problem though. See the following derivation...

If you take F=MA and substitute A = Vo-Vi/t you get...

F = M (Vo-Vi/t)

Thus we can multiply t on both sides to rearrage the equation...

Ft = M (Vo-Vi)

Assuming a 0 initial velocity, which is correct in many striking situations, the equation now becomes...

Ft = MV

This is the equation for a quantity known as impulse. Force generated is time dependent meaning that more force generated in a shorter time interval makes mass move at a great velocity.

Or inversely...

MV = Ft

A mass moving at a certain velocity at a certain velocity generates force that is time dependent.

In realspeak this means that if I push as hard as I can on a board, it may not break, but if I apply the same force in a strike, the board breaks.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Flatlander]

Regarding the ability to do work, Upnorth, I completely agree. However, you did say:

Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass.

Given that velocity is a vector quantity, that is all that I require. As well, I find momentum to be much easier to work with in solving collision type problems. At any rate

, we're basically into the realm of semantics.

 

[bignick]

Momentum is not a force therefore cannot produce damage it can only change the velocity of a different mass.

again, staying with this....when a velocity changes is when you have acceleration...since you have a mass with changing velocity you have force....

but i think you nailed it on the head when you brought up impulse, there was actually a physics problem in one of my books about breaking board vs. bricks...and the next chapter had one on a judo hip throw(rotation, etc...)...strangley enough...if i remember correctly, a brick requires less force to break, but you need to be moving at a much faster speed