Standardized Ho Sin Sul

[MBuzzy]

I realize that most styles and organizations have some type of standardized syllabus for Ho Sin Sul. I recently started studying at a Soo Bahk Do Dojang and found that the US SBD Federation has a very strict Ho Sin Sul curriculum which is standardized.

My problem with this is that it only includes wrist grabs (both same side and cross) and lower and upper sleeve grabs. The techniques are also very specific in terms of stance and exact movements.

My Ho Sin Sul training in Korea was basically different every time that we did it, incorporating grabs from all different angles, different parts of the body, and in different ways. The actual techniques were also more based on the escape and the counter, without much attention to stance or exact movements....basically just get out and get your opponent down.

So how many of you have a standardized Ho Sin Sul curriculum like one of these, and if it is the former, how do you round out your self defense training. I see this as a very important side of our art, but I'm curious how other styles do this.

 

[Kacey]

We learn certain types of techniques at certain ranks, and have to demonstrate them at each rank - but they're not that specific. For example, to test to 8th gup yellow belt (this is the TKD association I belong to - in addition to the ITF requirements we started with) you have to be able to demonstrate 2 different releases to a straight grab to the wrist, 2 different releases to a cross grab to the wrist, one release from a bear hug from the rear with arms free, one release from a bear hug from the front with arms free, one release from a single hand grab to the lapel, one release from a single hand shoulder grab or push from the front, and one release from a single hand shoulder grab or push from the rear - but what those are depends on the student who is performing them. An adult man doing those releases would do something different from a preteen girl, for example, because of the difference in size, and how that affected leverage.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

As for the ITF (the TSD ITF), we also have set ho sin sul, and several levels thereof.

White belts through green belts have a ho sin sul set, though I don't know if they're required at tests, especially since I only ever learned the first couple. Maybe they added them after I was already past that. Dunno. Anyway, they're pretty basic, all cross-hand grabs (that I know), but useful nonetheless. When you get to red belt, though, there's a whole different set to memorize. There are 4 cross-hand grabs, 4 same-hand grabs, 3 2-hand-on-2-hand grabs, and 3 2-hand-on-1-hand grabs. Up to this point, all grabs are done from the front, starting in choon bee stance. The focus is on performing the techniques correctly, adding speed later, so that you can perform them on reaction to being grabbed, without having to think. Practice makes perfect.

When you get to cho dan level, though, things start to get more complex. The cho dan ho sin sul are two wrist grabs from the side (still 1-on-1) and one both-wrists grab from behind. At ee dan level, there are two cross-hand sleeve grabs, 2 same-hand sleeve grabs, and 2 both-sleeves grabs. These could pretty much all work if the wrist were grabbed instead, as far as I can tell (having practiced them quite a bit recently).

Sam dan and up, I dunno what they do.

Also, starting from cho dan, there is weapon ho sin sul. Cho dans defend against knife attacks, ee dans against sword attacks. Dunno what's past that. There are several different ways for the attacker to attack, so the defender has to know what to do when he sees the attack coming, since the test doesn't allow the defenders to know beforehand what's coming at them. That's the fun part of the test.

 

[MasterPistella]

sorry, problems with computer & it posted twice.

 

[MasterPistella]

The things JT mentioned as being for the dan levels in his fed. start at white belt for our fed. then get "more complex" from there. Those are our standardized requirements. Each instructor is also required to have what we call "Studio Requirements" that they teach & test on at each level. Some of our instructors also teach HKD so they use those. GM Pak has Jui Jitsu at his school, so he uses some from that. I teach differently........... well, you get the idea.

Also, there are 2 ways to practice. Statically like JT described. Start from Choon Bee & reach across & grab. Then there is Ballistically. Pretend you are walking down the street & have someone just grab you from a group of people standing around. This is more like an attack since you won't know how they will grab you or from which side. We practice with in groups of 5-8 with one being the victim. Luckily we have a 13 acre campus we can go out into to practice. Roads, sidewalks, parking lots, etc.

I like the way you described your training MBuzzy. That seems more "real" & how we do it.
Tang Soo

 

[MBuzzy]

JT - that actually sounds very very similar to our curriculum - only a much more informed opinion. It sounds like you may face the same problem as I do. Do the schools include any other self defense? Such as chokes, lapel grabs, bear hugs, headlocks, etc?

Master Pistella - I like the idea of studio requirements and your "ballistric training" where you go into the environment to practice, sounds like it is very effective. Do you fall under GM Pak, Ho Sik?

 

[cdunn]

Our Ho Sin Sul curriculum is fairly similar to the one that JT describes. There are fifteen white - green belt techniques:
5 same side 1-1 grabs
1 2-1 grab
one 2-2 grab
bear hug front and back
lapel - one and two handed,
rear shoulder grab, one shoulder and both shoulders
belt grab
hair grab
rushing tackle

Red belt is the same numbers as JT describes, and I do not know the black belt curriculum yet. Techniques are judged on speed of reaction and the degree of control attained over the 'attacker', rather than on stances and perfect technical execution. (though technique creates control - That can't be forgotten!)

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

JT - that actually sounds very very similar to our curriculum - only a much more informed opinion. It sounds like you may face the same problem as I do. Do the schools include any other self defense? Such as chokes, lapel grabs, bear hugs, headlocks, etc?

Master Pistella - I like the idea of studio requirements and your "ballistric training" where you go into the environment to practice, sounds like it is very effective. Do you fall under GM Pak, Ho Sik?

Yes, there are a few higher-level ho sin sul (maybe sam dan...) with bear hugs and stuff like that. I've actually had to do the bear hug against someone in class. Headlocks, I dunno, but bear hugs and lapel grabs I can confirm. Just don't know exactly where.

As to other methods of self-defense, every "block" in TSD hyung is a self-defense move in varying degrees of disguise. You just have to learn the whats and hows. And don't discount il soo sik.

@MasterPistella: I like the idea of "ballistic" ho sin sul. Maybe I should start practicing that with friends *evil grin*

 

[Muwubu16858]

My teacher is very strict in his requirements. By yellow belt, you have to memorize 10 self defense techniques against various grabs. By Black belt 100 techniques. 500 by 4th dan. My teacher is in the process of taping his self defense curriculum for a quick reference for me. I know about 600 of his techniques, but he says he has 3000 total he learned. Sounds crazy, but every week, theirs two more new ones he adds. Some are related, but not exactly the same.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

My teacher is very strict in his requirements. By yellow belt, you have to memorize 10 self defense techniques against various grabs. By Black belt 100 techniques. 500 by 4th dan. My teacher is in the process of taping his self defense curriculum for a quick reference for me. I know about 600 of his techniques, but he says he has 3000 total he learned. Sounds crazy, but every week, theirs two more new ones he adds. Some are related, but not exactly the same.

That's a bit of overkill from my perspective. There are only so many ways you can be grabbed. Better to learn one or two simple, useful, and quick techniques than trying to cram 100 into your brain.

 

[MBuzzy]

My teacher is very strict in his requirements. By yellow belt, you have to memorize 10 self defense techniques against various grabs. By Black belt 100 techniques. 500 by 4th dan. My teacher is in the process of taping his self defense curriculum for a quick reference for me. I know about 600 of his techniques, but he says he has 3000 total he learned. Sounds crazy, but every week, theirs two more new ones he adds. Some are related, but not exactly the same.

WOW - so how do you learn them and keep track of them? Are they numbered? How are you tested? Are there a lot of different grabs?

Not to ask too many questions, but that is incredible! I'd love to learn that many....it gives you something for every situation, except it seems like it would be hard to perfect....or even practice them.

 

[Lynne]

My teacher is very strict in his requirements. By yellow belt, you have to memorize 10 self defense techniques against various grabs. By Black belt 100 techniques. 500 by 4th dan. My teacher is in the process of taping his self defense curriculum for a quick reference for me. I know about 600 of his techniques, but he says he has 3000 total he learned. Sounds crazy, but every week, theirs two more new ones he adds. Some are related, but not exactly the same.

Did you hear that explosion?! That was my brain!

 

[Lynne]

I realize that most styles and organizations have some type of standardized syllabus for Ho Sin Sul. I recently started studying at a Soo Bahk Do Dojang and found that the US SBD Federation has a very strict Ho Sin Sul curriculum which is standardized.

My problem with this is that it only includes wrist grabs (both same side and cross) and lower and upper sleeve grabs. The techniques are also very specific in terms of stance and exact movements.

My Ho Sin Sul training in Korea was basically different every time that we did it, incorporating grabs from all different angles, different parts of the body, and in different ways. The actual techniques were also more based on the escape and the counter, without much attention to stance or exact movements....basically just get out and get your opponent down.

So how many of you have a standardized Ho Sin Sul curriculum like one of these, and if it is the former, how do you round out your self defense training. I see this as a very important side of our art, but I'm curious how other styles do this.

We have a Ho Sin Sul and an Il Soo Sik Deh Ryun curriculum, but I don't know how standardized it is throughout the American Tang Soo Do Association.

As a white belt, I had to learn two cross-wrist grips and 5 Ill Soo Sik.

At yellow belt, I learned two more cross-wrist grips and 5 more Ill Soo Sik. So, now I know 4 cross-wrist grips and 10 Ill Soo Sik.

At orange belt, 8th gup, I will being learning same side wrist grips and 5 more Ill Soo Sik. I don't know if the number of wrist grips and Ill Soo Sik increases at higher levels. They must, though, because I saw 36 Ill Soo Sik listed (unless the list included ones for Black Belt).

As far as rounding out our self-defense curriculum, I know we learn various takedowns, foot sweeps, and knife defense (defense from). I'm not certain that we get into much "grappling/wrestling."

I like the idea of practicing different grabs.

 

[MBuzzy]

So it seems like most organizations just stick to the wrist and sleeve grabs, along with some knife defense at the much higher rank as part of their standardized curriculum...

Does this mean that more complex self defense and self defense from different angle and situations just isn't a part of Tang Soo Do?

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

So it seems like most organizations just stick to the wrist and sleeve grabs, along with some knife defense at the much higher rank as part of their standardized curriculum...

Does this mean that more complex self defense and self defense from different angle and situations just isn't a part of Tang Soo Do?

No, it just means it's one of the less-stressed parts of TSD, by many instructors. Remember that not all self-defense is grabbing, locking, and escaping. Come at me from any angle, and I have something to respond to an attack. I'm sure there are instructors out there that teach more complex material, but at higher levels (if at all).

 

[exile]

That's a bit of overkill from my perspective. There are only so many ways you can be grabbed. Better to learn one or two simple, useful, and quick techniques than trying to cram 100 into your brain.

This makes a lot of sense to me. It was the point of Aesop's fable about the hedgehog and the fox: the fox knows many tricks, the hedgehog only one. But when attacked, the fox takes so long to decide which trick to use that he gets killed; the hedgehog curls up in a niche in a wall and can't be dislodged.

Historically, JT's point is reinforced by the fact that old Okinawa masters who created and first taught the modern linear striking art that TSD and TKD are built on knew only a few kata at most. And the kata were their physical encyclopædia of combat technique. Karate historians seem to be in serious agreement that this state of affairs entails a rather limited number of very adaptable techniques for the accomplished fighters that Matsumura, Itosu, Kyan, and Motobu, among other, clearly were. On the basis of their precedent, the same thing seems to me to be the optimal approach: a limited number of techniques which have the `legs' to be varied in execution to meet a wide range of situations. Much easier to learn, retain, train and select for use under real-time stress situations.

 

[Lynne]

I wonder how many of the those defense techniques would become "second nature?"

 

[tsd]

So it seems like most organizations just stick to the wrist and sleeve grabs, along with some knife defense at the much higher rank as part of their standardized curriculum...

Does this mean that more complex self defense and self defense from different angle and situations just isn't a part of Tang Soo Do?

What do you mean by more complex? against a variety of weapons? multiple opponents? in the dark? surprise attacks? a large number of responses for a single attack? Or a greater number of techniques per response?

 

[MBuzzy]

What do you mean by more complex? against a variety of weapons? multiple opponents? in the dark? surprise attacks? a large number of responses for a single attack? Or a greater number of techniques per response?

Responses for different situations....like you said, multiple attackers, different weapons, grabs to the throat, hair, waist, from behind. Not necessarily many different responses for the same situation, but a response for every situation.

 

[Makalakumu]

Ho sin shul are an interesting aspect of training in TSD. They are interesting because they are redundant. An attack is an attack, whether it is a push, pull or strike and the forms all have techniques to deal these things. So, why have ho sin shul in the first place? Where did they come from?

Once you start cross training in some aiki and jujutsu arts, the answer to this question become apparent. When I trained in the USSBDMDK federation, I found that most of those techniques were direct adaptations of this or that list from other arts.

This was a modern adaptation. Ho sin shul back when my teacher was first training was very much like what Mbuzzy described. So, why did it change in the US?