Sport Fighter

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If we change our grip we get yelled at. Changing grip is the perfect opportunity for them to slip out of your grip.

A: that's what getting the control first is good for.
B: the way I'm picturing it, you don't actually lose the grip, and use both hands to prevent them from escaping.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Correction - standing arm bars used to be a little more common in Judo, but I guess the current rules have banned them. Probably due to incidents like this one:

The guy who did the arm bar there just looks annoyed.

 

[skribs]

Correction - standing arm bars used to be a little more common in Judo, but I guess the current rules have banned them. Probably due to incidents like this one:

I've had similar things happen to me. Biggest guy in the class took a lot of time to learn how to control those types of take-downs. There were a couple months where my Master would only pair him up with the 2nd biggest guy, and wouldn't have any smaller guys pair with him, especially for that specific technique.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

If we change our grip we get yelled at. Changing grip is the perfect opportunity for them to slip out of your grip.



I'll do that and then break the arm (if I can).

A: that's what getting the control first is good for.
B: the way I'm picturing it, you don't actually lose the grip, and use both hands to prevent them from escaping.

Just realized-part of the issue is probably that I'm picturing it from my tech, where the hand starts in a different position. So it might not translate. But grip change technically happens every time you flow from one lock to another.

 

[skribs]

A: that's what getting the control first is good for.
B: the way I'm picturing it, you don't actually lose the grip, and use both hands to prevent them from escaping.

My Master teaches Hapkido with the exact opposite principle as BJJ. There isn't time to work on control and positioning. If there's another person there, you only have a second or two before you need to switch opponents. If we take more than a few seconds, my Master tells us we failed and need to start over.

The guy who did the arm bar there just looks annoyed.

When we do sparring in Hapkido, one person will grab the other in random ways. The way I grabbed my partner set it up so all he had to do was tap my hands and my thumbs were almost dislocated. He was really mad at how easy it was. I also learned how not to grab an opponent.

 

[skribs]

Just realized-part of the issue is probably that I'm picturing it from my tech, where the hand starts in a different position. So it might not translate. But grip change technically happens every time you flow from one lock to another.

We try and maintain the same grip from start to finish. Sometimes our support hand changes, but we try to let go or shift our grip as little as possible.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

My Master teaches Hapkido with the exact opposite principle as BJJ. There isn't time to work on control and positioning. If there's another person there, you only have a second or two before you need to switch opponents. If we take more than a few seconds, my Master tells us we failed and need to start over.



When we do sparring in Hapkido, one person will grab the other in random ways. The way I grabbed my partner set it up so all he had to do was tap my hands and my thumbs were almost dislocated. He was really mad at how easy it was. I also learned how not to grab an opponent.

I could probably write an essay on exactly why I disagree with that, but it's more a difference in philosophy than anything else, so I don't think there's a purpose to it (plus I'm feeling lazy )

 

[skribs]

I could probably write an essay on exactly why I disagree with that, but it's more a difference in philosophy than anything else, so I don't think there's a purpose to it (plus I'm feeling lazy )

I'm perfectly fine with arguing with a difference in philosophy, as long as it doesn't boil down to "you're stupid because you don't do things the way I do it."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If we change our grip we get yelled at. Changing grip is the perfect opportunity for them to slip out of your grip.

If you get the grip that you want, you will not let go. But before you get your favor grips, you may move around a lot to achieve that.

 

[skribs]

If you get the grip that you want, you will not let go. But before you get your favor grips, you may move around a lot to achieve that.

If we don't get the grip we want from the start, we have to use a technique that fits the grip that we got. (For the most part).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

He’s talking about moves like this:

As evidenced in the video, they can work. For the reasons I outlined in my previous post, they’re rather low percentage against quality opponents, especially in MMA where the combatants are sweaty and slippery. They come up a little more often in Judo competition where the gi provides more friction.

I view these as "try it if it won't make it worse" moves. They can be done in the process of breaking structure. In many cases, the actual lock doesn't hold up in the transition of the person's structure breaking down (if they bend over fast, for instance, the lock gains too much slack) but they leave you in a better (or at least not worse) position. Getting a feel for how they disintegrate can make them useful for transition to other moves. And there are a couple of variations of standing arm bars that are pure targets of opportunity during a scramble (I'll see if I can find a decent video of a wrap-around arm bar, which makes no sense in any context but that, IMO).

 

[Martial D]

He’s talking about moves like this:

As evidenced in the video, they can work. For the reasons I outlined in my previous post, they’re rather low percentage against quality opponents, especially in MMA where the combatants are sweaty and slippery. They come up a little more often in Judo competition where the gi provides more friction.

Ok. So at least now I know what buddy was talking about.

We both know that was a 1 off of the sort of getting a cartwheel kick ko or jumping off the wall into a spinning headkick. The stars pretty much aligned to make that happen

Regardless, I was only interested in a specific claim that has since been waffled away, so.

Enjoy your Friday

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I view these as "try it if it won't make it worse" moves. They can be done in the process of breaking structure. In many cases, the actual lock doesn't hold up in the transition of the person's structure breaking down (if they bend over fast, for instance, the lock gains too much slack) but they leave you in a better (or at least not worse) position. Getting a feel for how they disintegrate can make them useful for transition to other moves. And there are a couple of variations of standing arm bars that are pure targets of opportunity during a scramble (I'll see if I can find a decent video of a wrap-around arm bar, which makes no sense in any context but that, IMO).

Yep. 99% of the time against a skilled fighter a standing lock is just a threat which can force a reaction. It’s still useful to have them in your toolbox as long as you’re not attached to the idea of actually finishing them.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

A lot of great valuable points, I have a lot to think about concerning this subject.

 

[skribs]

Ok. So at least now I know what buddy was talking about.

We both know that was a 1 off of the sort of getting a cartwheel kick ko or jumping off the wall into a spinning headkick. The stars pretty much aligned to make that happen

Regardless, I was only interested in a specific claim that has since been waffled away, so.

Enjoy your Friday

Did you ignore my posted video?

He posted 2 videos of it being done in different competitions (one in what looks like either Muay Thai or MMA, one in Judo). There were rules made about it (according to Tony's posts). So it's not just a one-off.

You're also ignoring Jerry's contributions to the discussion.

You are given evidence of it working, and still you treat it as a fluke, something not worth even considering. This is why I don't like bothering to do the research for you. Because the research is done, and you just disregard it, because of whatever reasons you can find. You are so dogmatic in your views on martial arts, that anything that contradicts what you know is manure, is a 1-off, is whatever excuse you can find for it to not be a viable technique or training strategy.

 

[Flying Crane]

This is a major difficulty with standing armbars. It's not that they can't work, because they certainly can. The problem is that because you have less control of your opponent, they only work against a competent, fully resisting opponent if you apply them full speed, which doesn't leave time to tap. That means you can't really test and polish them properly in sparring (assuming you don't have an unlimited supply of training partners willing to have their arms broken). If you are getting taps with a standing armbar in sparring, it means your partners are tapping way early and not fully testing whether they can escape the lock. A lot of the skill involved in reliably finishing a lock comes from trial and error, finding all the subtle points of failure in the last 10% of the technique where you thought you had your opponent caught but the angle or the position or the leverage weren't quite right. With a partner tapping early to your standing armbar, you never get a chance to develop that skill.

This is one reason why, out of thousands of MMA fights, I know of only one that was finished by standing armbar (Shinya Aoki broke Keith Wisniewski's arm with a standing Waki Gatame in 2005) compared to hundreds of finishes via Juji Gatame on the ground.
(The other reason is that the increased control involved in ground submissions makes them inherently higher percentage even if skill levels were equalized.)

I really like this post, I think you’ve made clear points and described them eloquently.

The truth is, there are techniques that are inappropriate in competition because they do not work at anything less than full commitment, which results in injury and destruction. If they are dialed back to avoid that kind of injury, then they do not work and they leave you exposed. These kinds of techniques need to be practiced in a more controlled setting, and yes that does mean they have the drawbacks you describe in developing skill with them.

The problem is that all too often this is turned around and ridiculed under “too deadly for competition” and accusations are made of using that as a cover for not wanting to compete or not placing a lot of emphasis on sparring.

 

[skribs]

I really like this post, I think you’ve made clear points and described them eloquently.

The truth is, there are techniques that are inappropriate in competition because they do not work at anything less than full commitment, which results in injury and destruction. If they are dialed back to avoid that kind of injury, then they do not work and they leave you exposed. These kinds of techniques need to be practiced in a more controlled setting, and yes that does mean they have the drawbacks you describe in developing skill with them.

The problem is that all too often this is turned around and ridiculed under “too deadly for competition” and accusations are made of using that as a cover for not wanting to compete or not placing a lot of emphasis on sparring.

I think it stems from people wanting to believe their methodology is perfect. If there are pros and cons compared to another style, then your methodology isn't perfect, because there's cons. So people get defensive about everything regarding their chosen training method, and anything that is not like theirs is wrong.

That's not to say people think it should be perfectly like theirs. But the core of what they consider to be important, they consider that to be the only core philosophy.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

I think it stems from people wanting to believe their methodology is perfect. If there are pros and cons compared to another style, then your methodology isn't perfect, because there's cons. So people get defensive about everything regarding their chosen training method, and anything that is not like theirs is wrong.

That's not to say people think it should be perfectly like theirs. But the core of what they consider to be important, they consider that to be the only core philosophy.

I think you nailed thi

How many times should someone use a single technique in "real life" combat before they consider it not a fluke? And against what kinds of people? You're making a distinction that doesn't really have a good cutoff to it.

Not necessarily a technique, but personal skill, should be tested.

 

[Deleted member 34973]

My personal bias is when I hear someone say, "It will work in the street" but then admits that they have never been in a real situation.

To me that is a con-artist hard at work.

 

[skribs]

My personal bias is when I hear someone say, "It will work in the street" but then admits that they have never been in a real situation.

To me that is a con-artist hard at work.

So, should martial artists seek out street fights in order to prove their effectiveness?

The experience of others counts for something. I trust in the experience of my Master, and what he says will work in the streets, based on his past and credentials. When he says something works in the streets, he's saying from experience. When I say the same thing works in the streets, I'm saying from his experience. Does that make me a con artist and my techniques untested? In my biased opinion, no it does not.