Sport Fighter

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Deleted member 34973, Aug 28, 2019.

  1. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Wait, so your armlock can be used safely in sparring, but is too deadly for a fight because it would certainly break the arm.

    Can you show me a video of this being performed on a non compliant person?
     
  2. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    See Gerry's response. He said it way better than I could have. I'm not going to try and reword what he said, because whatever I try and say will be worse.
     
  3. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    Yes. And there are also lots of 'versions' of working techniques that are absolutely wrong and don't work at all. There's only one way to set them apart.
     
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  4. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    His post did not answer my question.
     
  5. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    CMA has 2 set of skills. Skill that can be used between

    1. friendly training partner.
    2. unfriendly challenger.

    If you only train part 1 without training part 2, you are a "sport fighter" by definition. Many people may be satisfied to train just part 1. I'm not.
     
  6. DocWard

    DocWard Purple Belt

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    I believe this summarizes my opinion on the matter at least as well as I could.

    If someone referred to me as a "sport fighter," I wouldn't be offended if they didn't mean it in a derogatory manner. If it were meant in a derogatory manner, I wouldn't be offended so much as annoyed that someone was stooping to personal attacks, and I wouldn't bother interacting further.

    No, as I define (generally) a soldier (or sailor, airman or marine) as a person, whether a volunteer or conscript, who has taken an oath to fight for his or her country, and to die in said country's defense if necessary.

    While paintball and AirSoft can replicate the strategic and tactical aspects of warfare in a non-deadly environment, the sports are pursued as hobbies, where everyone anticipates going home after a day or weekend of adrenaline filled fun.

    Darn skippy they do!

    I can say that playing paintball made me a better field soldier, as it allowed me to practice those common tactical tasks important to moving in a contested environment.

    As for the part about going "against people who know what they're doing," I'm reminded of one of "Murphy's Laws of Combat:" Professionals are predictable, it's the amateurs who are dangerous!" I played for years on a MilSim paintball team, and all but a couple members of our team were combat arms veterans. It was often most challenging running into another squad that had no clue what they were doing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  7. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    Ok. If I punch you at half speed or full speed, which is more likely to connect with your face?
     
  8. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    That tells me you forgot the question.

    So I'll rephrase it.

    Well them

    If it works in sparring, why doesn't it work in a fight? Why would the street guy get a broken arm, but the sparring guy wouldn't?

    Second, I asked for a video of this technique working on someone that isn't playing along, to make sure we are actually talking about something here, and not one of the many existent 'untestable'(bullsh#t) techniques that exist all throughout tma. Like I said, I don't care about what ifs.
     
  9. skribs

    skribs Senior Master

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    What specific technique I'm talking about is irrelevant, is part of why I didn't post a video. There are other reasons, but that's the biggest. We're talking about the concept of what speed things work at.

    The reason I bring up the punch, is because a punch at half speed is significantly easier to avoid. The same is true of many grappling concepts. If I go for a double leg by crouching down and duck-walking towards you, it won't work. At half speed, it doesn't work against resistance.

    The other reason I bring up the punch, is because most sparring is done with the effort to not injure your partner. Taking boxing for self defense would be pointless if you're getting concussions in class every other week. In light sparring, typically a tag to the head to say "gotcha!" is enough. Where in a match or a real fight, you throw as hard as you can to try and knock the other person out. Unfortunately, this can also lead to concussions, which is why I've heard some people quit MMA to focus specifically on grappling competitions.

    But back to grappling. In light sparring or light rolling, if I can get into a position where the submission is available, my partner will usually tap. When I was a white belt, I went hard on every technique, and what ended up happening is I could barely use my hands the next day because my wrists were so sore from all the wristlock submissions we do. I learned when to go hard, and when to let my partner drill without sacrificing my body for it. If my partner does something that would result in my arm being broken had he continued, I will acknowledge his victory.

    In a match, that's not the case. If my winning or losing a tournament is dependent on my tapping, I'm going to do everything in my power to not tap. If someone has me in a position where I am at the edge of my flexibility, but I have options to brace or roll out of the technique, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to just give you the submission (and don't stop reading here), because I am going to try to roll or brace.

    However, the only reason I can roll or brace, is because you stopped to give me a chance to tap. If you wouldn't have given me a chance to figure it out, then my arm would be broken.

    Let's go back to the punch. Because for some reason concussions are okay. If we're doing light sparring, I'm going to tap you on the head, because I don't want you to suffer permanent brain damage. If I were to punch that way in a boxing match or MMA fight, it wouldn't work. Because you would just ignore the tap on the head and keep going.

    The same applies to grappling. In sparring, I can make it work, because people recognize what I could have done if I didn't hold back. In a match, it won't work, because people won't tap until absolutely necessary, and I'm not going to go full speed on the break because I'm not a sociopath. But in a real situation when I want to disable my attacker, I'm going to use it full force.
     
  10. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    LARPers?
     
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  11. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't know I always really made sure I had the guy. Then arm locked them.

    That way I could fight them on in sparring without having to take the arm off. Which gave me a real time experience using them.

    A lot of wrestling underhooks, two on one and head control made what I thought was unworkable to at least a bit workable.
     
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  12. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I have a theory about that. Paintball has no real penalty. If you get hit, it maybe stings a bit and folks laugh at you maybe. Not like the dangers real tactics are meant to deal with. So there are things that work (perhaps unreliably, perhaps reliably) in paintball that would cause problems in actual combat, and vice versa.
     
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  13. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    The point we've both made is that it doesn't really work in sparring as a destruction (because you can't reasonably destroy in sparring) or a submission (because it doesn't reliably restrain for holding in place). It can be done slowly only if the person is compliant (much like a punch, which I think was the point of Skribs' question).

    In a fight, the destruction is available. There's still the danger of escape because of the lack of base, but that's only an issue if you don't control around it - attempting it should put you in a better position, even if you can't complete it.
     
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  14. DocWard

    DocWard Purple Belt

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    Not so much, at least in my experience, because I've never seen anyone take on a different role or persona. Likewise, the outcome is unknown and unpredictable. I would think historical reenacts are closer to actual LARPers.
     
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  15. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    More should/would/could supported only by words and wishes.

    If that's enough for you, have at it.

    And yes, I understand there are conditions to make techniques work, and one of those might be speed of execution. That's just not relevant to the very specific claims @skribs made that I was addressing before he shifted his goalposts to a generality.
     
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  16. Martial D

    Martial D Senior Master

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    You have some strange ideas about how an actual grappling match happens, or how a fight happens.

    You should take a break from dance class and try them out for context.
     
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  17. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    He usually just needs to click "Reply" doesn't he?
     
  18. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    In that absolute context, a MA that doesn't spar or test a persons technique with some kind of resistance should not be call Martial. IMHO
     
  19. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Damn, that was very well said!
     
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  20. I think I am more confused than ever.
     
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